Congress in Fantasy Land....

[donovan]

The system is broke. Absolutely broke. What I give to the President is he took it on. Do I think the plan will be an improvement....well...probably not...but....at least their is discussion. My position is simple...get government out 100%..will become affordable and available. That is not happening.

The idea the liberals want to give everything to everybody and the conservatives nothing to anybody is lunacy. Compromise never works in these situations. But the idea that we are talking about it is better than the last 16 plus years.

[Spence]

Barney Frank said that this is the step that gets us to socialized medicine, refering to the current plan. Hey, I wouldn't mind the government running the system if they could point to me one successful program the government has ran aside from maybe the military or space program which are part of our defense system. Big business is behind this nationalized healthcare push. Having the government take care of it would be cheaper for them. Not for small business who would be strangled under this system.

The other day my wife, who is in the medical profession, told me that a screening test for CF costs $1800. Medicaid reimburses $30 of that cost and the lab has to eat the rest. She doesn't call for that test unless family history makes it likely. That is what the goverment calls affordable healthcare. The service provider gets stuck with the bill.

I'm not against paying my own insurance. I'm not against helping some who can't afford it pay theirs. I currently help around 40 people pay for insurance. I just am tired of the government telling people they can have free stuff if they vote this way of that. Nothing is free. Saying that no one under a certain income level will be taxed is a falsehood. Maybe the first year or so it may work that way, but eventually they will come to you.

Systems in other countries rely on the R&D in this country to make their systems work. When we can not longer afford to do that research everyones system falls like a house of cards. That gives rise to guys like Hitler. It will happen again in Europe before it happens here. France's economy and social structure is currently such a mess people have taken to the streets in protest. No peacefull demonstrations and debate, but third world violent type demonstrations. The liberals would have us look as France as "evolved".

[Derek]

Well well well.....Look who has something to say about health care. This is freakin AWESOME!!!!!!

IMO anyways.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRdLpem-AAs


Hillary is not the first to bring this up in 1993

[billybud]

The liberals would have us look as France as "evolved".

It is all in one's viewpoint. Some folks might look at the US and wonder about how "evolved" we are...with significant portions of our population incarcerated, some of the longest working hours in the first world, a health care system that costs double what others cost with less return.... a nation where guns per capita is the highest in the first world and violent crime is rampant, with an education system has fallen behind that of many countries (15th in reading, 19th in math)

Europeans do spend more time with their families, have more vacation time, have less violent crime, score higher on quality of life indexes..............and France, Italy, Austria, Norway, Greece, Ireland, Belgium, UK..and on and on, are rated by the World Health Organization as having better systems of health care.

I submit, that it doesn't behoove us to be blind, to let political ideology blind us to the very real problems that we face in America....nor to be so xenophobic that we don't recognize advances elswhere.

France does have some of the same issues as America, with immigration and work issues...But, once one talks about health care systems, one must recognize that France is ranked as the best in the world.

[Spence]

Those same health systems that are being held up as being great are being propped up by the failed health system here in the US. We have major problems here in the US. I agree completely with that. We didn't get those problems with the help of only one party, I agree with that as well. I don't agree that we should try to copy a system that as put such a strain on a countries government that the people are on the edge of revolt. I also fully believe that without the United States research and development into new medicines and procedures, those systems would crumble tomorrow.

I do believe we could learn things from others. We can even learn a lot from the healthcare systems in other countries. I'm just not sure that trying to copy them is learning anything. I believe our greatest problem is we do not want to come out of pocket for anything medical. We want a someone to pay for all of it. Insurance can't accomplish that and neither can the government. Insurance was for major medical. When it was used just for that, it wasn't expensive. Any of us could afford it out of pocket. We also get over treated for everything because of a doctor's fear of a lawsuit. If a doctor is negligent he should face discipline. That isn't how it works here. The government creates standards of care that go overboard. Lawyers take full advantage.

[donovan]

The polarization of American politics, the lack of intellectual and emotional debate, the lack of core values for decision, has caused this country, the United States of America, to have problems and issues we should not have. Plenty of blame to spread around and as I have said before, the mirrror is the best place to start.

I agree with Mr. Billybud, the things he stated are as I see them, certainly in general terms. Is the solution copying other countries, as Spence says, absolutely not. But there has to be a recognition of the problem and the debate for a solution. Healthcare is only one issue. There are solutions to healthcare....but the reality is those in control of the healthcare in this country will have to be replaced. These keepers of the system are full of the same qualities of those that have controlled our financial systems, greed, avarice, corruption, power, ad nauseum.

What we can not continue to do is be polarized in the fact that government is the only solution to there is no problem. I hear liberals willing to turn medicine 100% to the government and conservatives saying that those that can not pay for the help, be sick...they deserve it. This is not the America I want to be in and I am willing to recognize my contribution to the mess we are in.

And Derrick....a lot of this started when this country rejected the Abraham Lincoln of our time, Barry Goldwater!

[Spence]

What we can not continue to do is be polarized in the fact that government is the only solution to there is no problem. I hear liberals willing to turn medicine 100% to the government and conservatives saying that those that can not pay for the help, be sick...they deserve it. This is not the America I want to be in and I am willing to recognize my contribution to the mess we are in.

I agree. We cannot be so hard headed as to believe someone with a different political belief system can't have a good idea or be right about how to fix something. What we cannot do, IMO, is adopt a bad idea that we know is a bad idea because it has been tried and is failing. By the same token, we cannot keep our bad system because it is a failed system as well. Maybe some of theirs and some of ours is the answer. We have to quit electing the hard right and hard left people to office. We also need the media to return to reporting and not spinning. People need real facts. Why not investigate the pros and cons of other country's healthcare system and let the people sort it out.

[Eric]

The one thing that I've noticed about Europe, for better or for worse, is that they don't fear their government. I think there's a sense that their government works for them. I can't say that for a 100% fact since I don't live over there, but that seems to be the vibe. I wouldn't trust this government with anything

The other thing I guess I should point out is that the culture is much different. I think the environment helps contribute to the low crime rate. I don't know how much of that has to do with how involved the government is in people's lives. We do face a different set of problems here and adopting similar government programs won't work overnight.

[billybud]

We once had unions with meaningful power (like France has today)...we once had literal labor wars in mining and the automobile industry where hired goons beat and shot union guys and vice versa. Troops were called out and marched on Mingo County in West Virginia, Detroit, Kenosha, and in the west.

Unions, in America today, are bit players and are mostly marginalized in working society. They no longer occupy the same place of power and influence that they once did. America has become the land of "every man for himself", for better and for worse.

But worker versus workplace is not the major problem that I see facing America. Maybe, just maybe, Charlie Manson wasn't that far off.

I haven't forgotten what I have witnessed in America...an America of my younger days...when cities burned, rioters ruled the streets, Watts, Detroit, Atlanta, Overtown, Liberty City and many others were burned and looted...and again decades later, we all watched the horrific scene on TV as rioters pulled a young guy out of his truck in LA and a concrete block is smashed in his face. Simmering, like a pot ever ready to boil, is the problem of economic hopelessness for underclasses.

We have an underlying problem of the "haves" getting more and the "have nots" relegated to near poverty level existance. As the labor market has shifted, good paying jobs require intellectual functioning at a higher level and many members of our society are being left further behind with little chance to partake of the American dream. Bombarded by the good life as portrayed on TV and advertisements, young people with little hope of making more than $10 per hour, often turn to the industry that allows them to become entrepreneuers and make much more money. The successful guy with the $80,000 Mercedes that young guys look up to is, in many neighborhoods, the local drug wholesaler.

We Americans have always handled "problems" like these by pushing the problem to the edges and ignoring it until it affects mainstream life of the average American. We rounded up the indians and put them on reservations, gave them beef and blankets, and went on with our business. Now, when they revolted and went off the reservation, we just sent in the troops and got tough. That strategy seemed to work in Watts, and Liberty City as well...just substitute Food Stamps and government subsidy for beef and blankets, and men in police blue with Remington slide action shotguns for the horse mounted cavalry.

But..if society continues to grow a permanent underclass at an alarming rate, there may be days of reckoning. Although we have been at peace for a while, do not be lulled into thinking that simmering pot won't once again boil over.

[Eric]

I do understand what you're saying, Billybud, but with all due respect, this isn't 1960 anymore. I just don't understand the disenfranchisement. Who's fault is it really? I would say partly our government and partly their own. I think the government has done a borderline-pathetic job of "leveling the playing field". An education is what anybody needs to succeed in the United States. And I think most can afford a college education if they work during the summer and part-time during the school year to make minimum payments on a loan. If their parent's can't get a loan in their name, there's FAFSA. Plus I think most schools can cut cost on people from poor socioeconomic backgrounds. But college isn't my point. I'm talking about public education. The structure of inner-city society is disheartening at best. What you said is true, Billybud, that often these kids get off to such a bad start that the odds are stacked against them. If there's one big government spending program I would support, it would be to fix inner cities.

If the government was able to promote competition in public education versus "nudging" folks into their crappy inner-city schools, the kids would be much better off. Detroit is a keen example of this if there ever was one. Still, it's hard for money to fix problems that are societal and I understand that much.

And Billybud, I guess you don't believe in capitalism . There are millions of people running around today who are better off than their parents. It just takes a little hard work and an education. One thing the government can assist, the other it cannot. Taking money from the more productive in society to handout to others is not going to promote progress.

[billybud]

Eric...you are truly naive in your hopefulness about college for everyone and an attendant living wage....It just will not happen..and if it did, there would not be enough jobs.
The education battle is being lost in the first years of elementary school as it has been for decades...forget college.

...More than 20 percent of adults read at or below a fifth-grade level - far below the level needed to earn a living wage.
...Nearly half of America's adults are poor readers, or "functionally illiterate." They can't carry out simply tasks like balancing check books, reading drug labels or writing essays for a job.
...50 percent of American adults are unable to read an eighth grade level book.
...Approximately 50 percent of the nation's unemployed youth age 16-21 are functionally illiterate, with virtually no prospects of obtaining good jobs.
...More than 75% of those on welfare, 85% of unwed mothers and 68% of those arrested are illiterate. About three in five of America's prison inmates are illiterate.

Sure...they can get college diplomas, but they will be the kinds we give a running back, a piece of paper signifying that you went to college but not signifying marketable skills.

Most of our jobs, anyway, do not require a college education...even though we now often make such an education mandatory, where in the past we did not. For example, a surveyor in Florida used to learn on the job, working his way up from a rodman to a party chief to a registered surveyor once he passed the knowledge test. Today, in Florida, you must have a college diploma to be a surveyor. A rodman is now a deadend low paying job with little future of advancement...

We just do not have enough jobs that pay well enough to satisfy the US need....

Our labor market is bifurcated with the two ends moving away from each other in opposite directions as they have for several decades. We have a number of high wage/high skill jobs that require education or high tech skills (and intellectual ability) and we have a much larger number of jobs in the service sector that pay from minimum wage to barely enough to raise a family. The middle of the labor market, manufacturing jobs with their family wages, has been gutted by globalization and the shifting of work to overseas work forces. Construction jobs, with the loss of union impact, pay 40% less in wage (adjusted for CPI) than they did 30 years ago.

And now, white collar jobs are disappearing at scary rates as IT, service sector and other jobs are being outsourced as technology allows.

We have always, in America, been proud of our immigrant past and the ideal that anyone can become successful with hard work and determination. And I understand that your post was made in that spirit.

[WoVeU]

You all have great points.

On Education, Eric you make good points...the upper half of the smart and/or IQ'd + working crowd can go to school. But BB is right...we already have Master's Degrees supervising at Mickey D's. And BB is very much right on the education failure being very early...K-5 are terrible. We lose the battle early and often!

On the whole thing...we really junked up when we lost most all forms of state sovereignty. If we hadn't done that...we would have 50 working case platforms to model plans and laws by!!! That was just stupid!

AND America sure isn't the light of the world in anything but Military and Space power...and an over-sized college and lab playing field! It makes me want to throw-up just thinking about it!

We have good liberal thinkers on this board and some good conservative thinkers on this board...I would urinate on the ones we have on the Hill if they were on fire! (America couldn't afford the laws they'd pass pursuant to such life-saving excretion!)

[WoVeU]

Well well well.....Look who has something to say about health care. This is freakin AWESOME!!!!!!

IMO anyways.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRdLpem-AAs


Hillary is not the first to bring this up in 1993

Man...don't I miss Ronald Reagan! Laying some truth on the people!

[Derek]

But, once one talks about health care systems, one must recognize that France is ranked as the best in the world.

Wrong. There is no system on this planet that compares to the US. Canadians don't come here for the scenery.

Maybe it's not the most cost efficient, but it's the best.

[Spence]

The median income in the US is higher then in either France or the UK. The sales tax in France is 20%, in the UK it is 17.5%. They make less and pay more.

Today anyone under 65 that is illiterate has only themselves and their parents to blame. Women smoke, take drugs, and drink alcohol during pregnancy and wonder why their kids have learning disabilities. Even if they don't have learning disabilities because of those things, they suffer from parents who have better things to do then raise their children. No every kid isn't suited for college, but very few people should be illiterate.

Plenty of able bodied people in this country decide they don't want to work. They would rather be in poverty (or at least our version of poverty). They choose that life. I know people like that. My wife provides services to people like that every day. They have no money to get to their doctor appointment. The county provides them with fuel vouchers. They do have money for cigarettes. They have money for soda pop and beer. They seem to all be well fed. Not healthy, but well fed. The major difference between us is that I have a house, car, and a job and I don't play the lottery. The rest is just as available to them. The poor in this country have free healthcare. They need only show up at an emergency room. They have a card so groceries can be provided to them. They have vouchers for heat in the winter, air conditioners in the summer. Most even have cable.

The underclass in this country was created by politicians thinking they were doing these people a favor. They weren't.