Understanding Obama and our times.

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Eric
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Re: Understanding Obama and our times.

Postby Eric » Sun Mar 01, 2009 12:21 am

Thanks for sharing. It's an interesting premise, although I don't believe the Obama administration are a bunch of commie pinkos or anything :lol:

These tactics have been used in politics for a long time now. If we b.s. the populous long enough, they'll accept it. "This economic situation is dire and we can't think about it......so.....uh...pass this bill!" :roll: I find it absolutely insulting as an American that no Congressman read this bill and voted for it. I don't really care how long it is; don't put your name on it if you haven't read the thing. And, I think we should be asking ourselves, why does Congress have to pass a bill THAT large, anyway? :shock:

If people want to know where their money goes, it's all overseas, dudes. You buy a Japanese car, you use a phone service that employs folks in India, you buy shirts made in Thailand, that money doesn't come back unless individuals decide to invest in America which is pretty doubtful. The debt is insane right now and the American dollar will plummet. While it won't be the French revolution or anything, people are going to be sick of being disenfranchised and it could get kind of ugly as far as rioting goes here in the next 10 years when America is basically half of our former selves. And this isn't the free market's fault; the people buying these things are making a conscious decision to take the cheaper product even if the money goes overseas and the money becomes more concentrated at the top. It's kind of like the America that Obama wants to create. If the country becomes a bunch of freeloaders, who's left to produce and do the heavy lifting? Socialism is counterproductive to building a prosperous place.
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Re: Understanding Obama and our times.

Postby Spence » Sun Mar 01, 2009 10:47 am

wouSociallism begats socialism. Obama's plan to get us off fossil fuels is to raise taxes on carbon based energy until solar and wind are cheaper. Remember that at over $4.00 a gallon on gasoline, solar and wind were still more expensive. His plan isn't to find cheaper ways to make us oil independent; which would keep us competitive in a global market. China already has a huge industrial base, one that rivals ours in the 40's and 50's and he is doing everything in his power to make sure they become a economic super power. What amazes me is that we follow into the darkness willingly. The Republicans abused power when they had it, that is true. But to fix that we elect a guy who adds to the debt by double. You can not spend yourself out of debt. We have been trying to do that since the Johnson presidency. It doesn't work.
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

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Re: Understanding Obama and our times.

Postby Howdy » Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:59 pm

The tax cuts we had for the last few years went to the wrong people.
The rich do not spend the money,they just buy more stock etc.
Give the tax cut to the people earning less than $30,000 .

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Re: Understanding Obama and our times.

Postby Spence » Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:52 pm

Howdy wrote:The tax cuts we had for the last few years went to the wrong people.
The rich do not spend the money,they just buy more stock etc.
Give the tax cut to the people earning less than $30,000 .


The tax cuts that Obama is letting end are for anyone with children. Some of these people got back more then they paid in taxes. They will not get that again and everyone who benefited from that cut will now pay more. Over 90% of them are people making from 0 to 100,000 dollars. I'm not for anyone having to pay more money. Depending how you define rich, the rich make up between 2% and 5% of the population. Even if you took every dime of the money they make in a year and gave it to the government, it wouldn't balence the budget, let alone retire the government debt. Where do you think they will come to get that money? They will come directly to the middle class, because it is the largest class. Tax cuts to people making under $30,000 won't matter if everything their energy costs go up 500%. That is basically what Obama is trying to do with the cap and trade stuff.

France tried what Obama is proposing in the 80's. Look at what happened to them financially. They are a mess.

China is on the verge of becoming an economic super power. They have taken over the world industry. If we don't get our act together, we will be in trouble. Democrats and Republican alike have screwed us up. It is time we made people accountable.
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

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Re: Understanding Obama and our times.

Postby Spence » Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:06 am

It isn't the sentiment that causes this, it is the politicians who incite it. The fact about this over 250 tax is that it is a small business tax. The actual "rich" people you refer to will shelter their money. They can, so they will. The businesses really can not do that unless they move out of the country. So they will pay the tax and they will raise the price of their goods to cover the tax because they have no choice. They have a bottom line to meet. Lots of people do not realize that most small businesses file on their personal income. Some, who pay for their products without a line of credit, appear to make a lot of money. The truth of the matter is that money is to pay for more product. To keep things moving. Lots of people think if an item sells for $20.00 that the seller probably paid $4 or $5 for it, when the reality is that they likely paid $18. At least that is how the wholesale business works - with probably another 1 to 2% marketing money under the line. For the right to make that $2 he has to pay for the product, pay to get it shipped, pay to get it unloaded, pay to warehouse it, pay for someone to pick it to ship back out, and pay someone else still to deliver it. Not to mention paying someone to sale it and do the accounting and all of this with benefits. The net profit on a business like this figures somewhere between 1 and 2%. That means most of the money you bring in goes to pay for new product, utilities, payroll, and benefits. If you do enough volume you have to think about expanding. If you have been lucky enough to do enough business to be able to expand - build an new building or an addition, and hire more people to help man it - you have to invest money that the business has made and money the business will make (hopefully) to pay for it. Business just can't eat the cost of the tax, it must be passed on to the consumer. This means that everyone who uses the product pays the tax.

In Ohio we pay a federal tax, medicare, social security, state tax, county tax(in some counties), local tax(in most counties), school taxes (in some counties), property tax, sales tax, fuel tax (44 cents per gal.), and several sin taxes. Every year someone puts a levy on to pass a tax add on for a quarter of a cent for this or that good cause (and it is usual an important or usefull service). Politicians justify it saying it will only cost you an extra 25 or 50 bucks a year or say that someone else will pay for it, not you. It is how politicians raise taxes on the middle class. They tell you they are only raising taxes on someone else. Here is an idea. Why don't we tell them to make do with what they have. Even better, less then they have. Lets not raise taxes on anyone. Lets make them work inside a budget with a set amount of money like all of the rest of us. This divide and conquer system of class warfare used by politicians is only effective if we let it be effective.

I have children like many other people. My oldest is a diabetic, her new insulin pump just cost me $6200. Her infusion sets cost me $34 every two or three days. Does insurance pay for most of it - yeah. Except someone has to pay for that insurance and the way that works is the insurance company adds up the cost of all your employees medical costs and spreads them out between the group. It is re-evaluated every year. We pay 75%. I pay 100% of mine and 75% of theirs. I think I pay enough already, I don't need someone telling me how lucky I am. A loaf of bread will cost me as much as the next guy.
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

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Re: Understanding Obama and our times.

Postby Eric » Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:44 pm

I am somewhat in support of the way the health care system works right now, but I can see how it makes sense for everybody to be covered. It just seems like the "profit incentive" isn't the right motivation for companies that can decide who lives or dies :shock:

If companies like GM have to offer health insurance for their employees, that's built into the price of the car. So if you buy a GM car, you're basically paying for somebody else's health insurance. Bottom line is, nothing is ever free unless you don't work and can get covered by the government :lol:
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Re: Understanding Obama and our times.

Postby Spence » Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:34 pm

Eric wrote:I am somewhat in support of the way the health care system works right now, but I can see how it makes sense for everybody to be covered. It just seems like the "profit incentive" isn't the right motivation for companies that can decide who lives or dies :shock:

If companies like GM have to offer health insurance for their employees, that's built into the price of the car. So if you buy a GM car, you're basically paying for somebody else's health insurance. Bottom line is, nothing is ever free unless you don't work and can get covered by the government :lol:


I'm not against having health insurance or having some oversight on insurance. I think, though, we all need to pay our way. I don't want a system that is worse then we have now.

If how Obama is handling energy is any indication of how he fixes things, people are going to find out really fast that sometimes you get taxed without someone calling it a tax. Wait until we get next winter's heating bills or probably this summer's fuel bills. The people who Obama said wouldn't get taxed are in for a rude awakening.
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

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Re: Understanding Obama and our times.

Postby Derek » Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:57 pm

fluiddude wrote:
Howdy wrote:The tax cuts we had for the last few years went to the wrong people.
The rich do not spend the money,they just buy more stock etc.
Give the tax cut to the people earning less than $30,000 .


I am continually amazed when I see posts like this. Yeah, let's just tax the bejesus out of the rich so that they invest their money overseas or into tax shelters rather than anything remotely productive. Great idea. :roll:


I agree. I just hope the small business man is still in a good mood after he has 10-20K missing at the end of the year.

The Bush tax cuts also generated the highest revenues to the Treasury in the history of the world.
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Re: Understanding Obama and our times.

Postby Spence » Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:29 am

Unfortunately the Republicans decided to spend the money rather then be responsible. Too bad that when these guys had the chance to lead, they didn't have the will. Now we will pay dearly for the Democrats doing the same thing only 10 fold. You just simply can not spend yourself out of debt. People have to make their own way. Raise their own kids, pay their own bills, and take care of their own health. Nothing comes without a price tag and we are going to pay a big price if we allow China to become the leading economic super power in the world. We need to forget the cap and trade stuff and find a cheaper alternative to oil. We don't need to raise fuel to the point where the other things are cheaper. That is just telling the rest of the world to take over our business. The fewer people that have jobs the fewer taxes that will come in. The answer isn't to raise peoples taxes. The answer is to tighten your belt.
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Re: Understanding Obama and our times.

Postby Derek » Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:35 pm

Spence wrote:Unfortunately the Republicans decided to spend the money rather then be responsible. Too bad that when these guys had the chance to lead, they didn't have the will. Now we will pay dearly for the Democrats doing the same thing only 10 fold. You just simply can not spend yourself out of debt. People have to make their own way. Raise their own kids, pay their own bills, and take care of their own health. Nothing comes without a price tag and we are going to pay a big price if we allow China to become the leading economic super power in the world. We need to forget the cap and trade stuff and find a cheaper alternative to oil. We don't need to raise fuel to the point where the other things are cheaper. That is just telling the rest of the world to take over our business. The fewer people that have jobs the fewer taxes that will come in. The answer isn't to raise peoples taxes. The answer is to tighten your belt.


Yep
They’re either going to run the ball here or their going to pass it.

The fewer rules a coach has, the fewer rules there are for players to break.

See, well ya see, the thing is, he should have caught that ball. But the ball is bigger than his hands.

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Re: Understanding Obama and our times.

Postby donovan » Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:04 am

yep
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Re: Understanding Obama and our times.

Postby billybud » Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:05 pm

There is no denying that the rich have been getting richer and the middle class wage earner has been losing to the CPI.

The top 1% of households hold 33.4% of all American wealth. The 80% of America that most of us belong to, holds just 15.5% of all wealth.

Now, when 80% of the people account for 15% of the wealth, we are talking French Revolution type dynamics. I am solidly in favor of taxing those who have the wealth.

Roll out the tax version of the guillotine. Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite...hand me a torch, someone.
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Re: Understanding Obama and our times.

Postby Eric » Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:27 pm

I agree that it could get ugly, but most of those people made their money fair and square. It's voluntary exchange. I don't see why the government has to put a limit on how much you can make. I believe in a flat tax.

Why should the rich be taxed harder? Because they have more money? I don't believe that's a valid reason. Should they be taxed because they've contributed more to society than somebody who works at Taco Bell as their career? I know it sounds harsh, but just because you have done what you've needed to do legally to create your own wealth doesn't mean the government should penalize you for it. I realize you keep most of it and are better off than those who don't get that kind of money, but I don't see the reasoning behind it.
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Re: Understanding Obama and our times.

Postby Dossenator » Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:16 pm

Eric...I agree with you 100%. A flat tax is the only fair way to do it...if you make a $1 a day or $1,000 a day you pay the same percentage. But we all know that is not how it works. I do the taxes of a few family members every year. I have an aunt that lives in a house that is paid for, has a car that is paid for, lives alone now, and does not make much (by the way she gets by fine...not able to live lavishly but who does). When it comes tax time...not only does she get back every penny she paid in but usually more on top. My wife alone paid in $30,000 dollars in taxes this last year (she is the bread winner in the family by a mile) and we are getting back a very small fraction of that amount. Where is that money going...to individuals like my aunt. My wife is penalized for making a little bit of money. No way we should tax and penalize individuals more who do well and happen to make more money. But the truth of the situation is we all ready do it.
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Re: Understanding Obama and our times.

Postby billybud » Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:12 pm

Why should the rich be taxed harder? Because they have more money? I don't believe that's a valid reason. Should they be taxed because they've contributed more to society than somebody who works at Taco Bell as their career? I know it sounds harsh, but just because you have done what you've needed to do legally to create your own wealth doesn't mean the government should penalize you for it. I realize you keep most of it and are better off than those who don't get that kind of money, but I don't see the reasoning behind it.


A pretty good portion of the rich (Trump included) inherited...they were fortunate in their choice of parent..that's all. The rich start with a head start that they do not relinquish.
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