Northern Illinois and Fresno State

[donovan]

The chicanery and subterfuge of the BCS is always there if you look for it. Northern Illinois dropped one place in the BCS standings and Fresno State remained the same. This topic has been tractantibus frustra , but I still don't get it. If you are going to invite people to the party, then why don't they get an equal chance at the drawing? Orwell was not writing about society, he was a visionary who saw the BCS and it successor, the committee. "All animals are created equal but some are more equal than others." On every turn when a country founded on the principle of democracy by the blood of its people and defended by the blood of its people has a problem they throw out our foundation and turn to despotic dictators who excercise unrighteous dominion over those they feign to represent.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/bcs

Post Script: And least we forget, this site is operated by Mr. Congrove who stood up the the corruption of the system we now have and refuse to budge his principles and fairness for the instant gratification of the moment.

[Spence]

The BCS is controlled mostly by the voters and they dropped N. Illinois one spot. That would be the reason. Now what specifically made them drop NI? I have no clue.

[donovan]

The BCS is controlled mostly by the voters and they dropped N. Illinois one spot. That would be the reason. Now what specifically made them drop NI? I have no clue.

And the voters are corrupt...that is why the cry was for computers. You have coaches voting that no one believes that are filling out the ballot. They give it to some graduate assistant who is working harder that the coach so in the wee hours of the morning he looks at the scores and fills out the ballot so as to not rock the boat. And the AP votes are a bunch of journalists who are going to validate their preseason and the columns they write.

[Eric]

The AP isn't involved with the BCS, but point taken. The Harris is what makes up the other 1/3, and that isn't really any different in kind compared to the Coaches' poll. I believe what happened was Michigan State jumped Northern Illinois but didn't jump Fresno State.

[Eric]

I'm cheering for NIU the rest of the way because they would make a great story, the MAC would get a lot of exposure, and I'd like to see Jordan Lynch get another shot at the primetime stage. Only problem, they would more than likely get slaughtered by the Big 12 champion. The Fiesta Bowl gets the last pick of the at-large litter which means either UCF or Northern Illinois / Fresno. UCF would most likely go to the Orange Bowl, leaving the Fiesta with Fresno or NIU. Fresno would put up a little bit better of a fight in my estimation. If these teams made it, my hope would be that they don't get Baylor who would hang 60+ on them.

But they do play the games for a reason

[Duke1632]

If you are going to invite people to the party, then why don't they get an equal chance at the drawing? Orwell was not writing about society, he was a visionary who saw the BCS and it successor, the committee. "All animals are created equal but some are more equal than others."

That might be the worst of it, too. The pretense that the non-ordained have a chance, thereby preventing competition, which is a prerequisite to maintaining a monopoly--no, no need to form your own competing system, that operates according to reason and fairness (and illustrates by comparison internal corruption of the monopoly provider: BCS).

There is an economic axiom that everyone knows is true, yet almost all are willing to overlook: Monopolies are guaranteed to produce inferior products at higher cost (by virtue of the fact that without competition, there is no incentive to actually satisfy the consumer). BCS has a virtual monopoly wrt its product, and with monopolies it's much easier to manipulate a result than to predict it. Artificial monopolies cannot exist in a voluntary society without the aid of the ultimate monopoly, government, where the crown/govt doles out by fiat letters of monopoly. Under King George III, it was called merchantilism and rejected by the Founders of this nation, but today, and during its global revival during Orwell's time, it was referred to as fascism. Given that, maybe Orwell was writing about the BCS AND collectivist/monopoly govt.

No one would predict it, but perhaps CFB is a path to political, economic, and literary enlightenment.

[Spence]

The BCS is controlled mostly by the voters and they dropped N. Illinois one spot. That would be the reason. Now what specifically made them drop NI? I have no clue.

And the voters are corrupt...that is why the cry was for computers. You have coaches voting that no one believes that are filling out the ballot. They give it to some graduate assistant who is working harder that the coach so in the wee hours of the morning he looks at the scores and fills out the ballot so as to not rock the boat. And the AP votes are a bunch of journalists who are going to validate their preseason and the columns they write.

We agree. I think that since the coaches and harris poll were given more weight the have absolutely manipulated the poll. The AP vote, bad as it is, is a more honest vote.

[billybud]

NIU beats up on nobodies and is undefeated and then when they ran into a Florida State (in the bowl last year)...oops.

NIU's best win was by three points over four loss (and counting) Iowa.

NIU has lost just one game in the last 20 (to FSU) but has played nobody at all in the last 20 except 4-9 Iowa last year and a bad Iowa this year.

NIU will finish this season having not beaten a BCS team with a winning record...as they did last year.

Why are they considered good?

Lynch carried 23 times for 44 yards against FSU and was 15 of 41 passing. Yet they were all world against their bum schedule.

It is all schedule.

[Spence]

It can be. It is hard to tell whether a team is good or just good against their schedule. Also, for a team like NIU a bowl game against Florida State is a big deal. To Florida State it is passing time. But you are right that in almost every case a team like NIU isn't going to have the athletes Florida State has if Florida State goes 7-5.

[billybud]

NIU is good only against a very weak schedule..it is all context.

It is 12-0 Ball State all over again...

[Duke1632]

Interestingly, this looks a lot like the debate that raged in the link Eric provided earlier, only that time the object was Ball State, but billybud's position was quite similar.

Ultimately, there are only two solutions:
(1) allow for the possibility that a team with a weak schedule might actually be competitive with AQ conference upper echelon. If wrong, there's very little downside--as in you get a Bowl game blowout that happens all the time anyway.
(2) forbid all non-AQ teams for all time the opportunity to prove they might be competitive. Here, the downside is potentially great.

From reading the earlier thread, I think I know where billybud (and Gordon Gee) stands, but I respectfully disagree. The cost-benefit analysis seems to be weighted heavily in favor of choosing (1) over (2). Just my opinion, of course.

[Spence]

NIU is good only against a very weak schedule..it is all context.

It is 12-0 Ball State all over again...

I would agree. I just don't think that is has to be the case, even though I believe it is. I also believe the coaches and harris polls are manipulated by the voters.

[Spence]

Interestingly, this looks a lot like the debate that raged in the link Eric provided earlier, only that time the object was Ball State, but billybud's position was quite similar.

Ultimately, there are only two solutions:
(1) allow for the possibility that a team with a weak schedule might actually be competitive with AQ conference upper echelon. If wrong, there's very little downside--as in you get a Bowl game blowout that happens all the time anyway.
(2) forbid all non-AQ teams for all time the opportunity to prove they might be competitive. Here, the downside is potentially great.

From reading the earlier thread, I think I know where billybud (and Gordon Gee) stands, but I respectfully disagree. The cost-benefit analysis seems to be weighted heavily in favor of choosing (1) over (2). Just my opinion, of course.

There is a downside if you only have two teams that make it. That is the problem with a team that plays a weak schedule. It doesn't even have to be a team from a non AQ conference. Ohio State's schedule is weak. I try to compare them to the other top teams, but it is hard. The truth is that if Ohio State played in the MAC and played the same schedule they have played this year, they would be ranked like NIu is now. The reason they are rank 4 is they are a blue blood program. I hate to admit that, but it is true. Ohio State could be good, but they could be a product of their schedule too. I think we will find out a lot about the Buckeye Offense if/when they play Michigan State in the B-10 championship game. I don't think we will find out about the Buckeye D until the bowl game. That is what scares me.

[Duke1632]

NIU is good only against a very weak schedule..it is all context.

It is 12-0 Ball State all over again...

I would agree. I just don't think that is has to be the case, even though I believe it is. I also believe the coaches and harris polls are manipulated by the voters.

I agree too, probably. NIU I'm guessing is probably about the same caliber as Buffalo, who did not provide much excitement in the games against 2 of the CCR top 3 teams.

That said, the schedule and context argument cuts both ways, not just the way you are using it. Just as the schedule provides very little legitimate evidence to support the notion that NIU is competitive with top AQ conference teams, it clearly provides even less evidence to support the contrary position. Going undefeated is a rarity for any schedule and that alone means something, if only a chance to be embarrassed. Particularly, when there's also a chance for something else entirely that makes for storied tales decades later.

[donovan]

NIU beats up on nobodies and is undefeated and then when they ran into a Florida State (in the bowl last year)...oops.

NIU's best win was by three points over four loss (and counting) Iowa.

NIU has lost just one game in the last 20 (to FSU) but has played nobody at all in the last 20 except 4-9 Iowa last year and a bad Iowa this year.

NIU will finish this season having not beaten a BCS team with a winning record...as they did last year.

Why are they considered good?

Lynch carried 23 times for 44 yards against FSU and was 15 of 41 passing. Yet they were all world against their bum schedule.

It is all schedule.

I knew I could wake you up. My arguments are the same as they are every year. Like you so adroitly pointed out many years ago, I like Congrove's rankings because they favor win/loss over schedule. I see no reason to change my position, it seem just as invalid now as it did then, only yours is more invalid...!!