Mid-Majors vs. Majors

[ktffan]

Ok, having read my post again, that could have been perceived as antagonistic. It wasn't meant to be such. I'm just asking questions trying to get your thought process down here. You've given me no reason to believe that the NAIA is competitive (although I believe it myself), other than Adams State was in the NAIA. I'm trying to understand you here. What is it about Adams State being in the NAIA that made them competitive?

I grew up in Alamosa Colorado. I've lived here 99% of my life, occasionally having lived in Boulder, Colorado (University of Colorado) and Ft. Collins, Colorado (CSU).
I've occasionally lived in Virginia and also temporarily in Scottsdale, Arizona. My experience, primarily is limited to a small-town environment, so I know a little about how Adams State is viewed, nationally, a small college which has made significant marks, in certain areas, competitively-speaking. Their track & field teams, and Cross Country teams are known nationally for being at or near the 'top', of all divisions! That's not something I'm saying to impress you, it's a fact.
Their football teams, by-and-large haven't been that great, traditionally.
But they have occasionally surprised people, 1989 I think it was they were very good. Since then it's been mostly touch-and-go.
Their wrestling teams also have been competitive, generally. The year they wrestled Notre Dame, I don't really know how good Adams State was, but they obvously were pretty good! The dual was set-up by the wrestling coach, who apparently had ties with the University of Notre Dame, somehow. Don't ask me for particulars, I dont' have them available to you. However his name is Rodger Jehlicka, and he was recently inducted into Adams State College's Hall of Fame. You can maybe read more about him, if you are interested.
My impression generally is that Adams State is a place kids go, who might not otherwise have an opportunity. Its' not necessarily #1 on anyone's list, but that might be changing somewhat. Some kids are coming here at least in part because of the tradition of excellence.
I could maybe give a list of names, but suffice to say that there has been a fairly long (and fairly accomplished) list of athletes who have impacted the institution. Some have since gone on to do outstanding things in their various occupations.
Unfortunately the college itself has fallen upon hard times, economically.
It's not a healthy place monetarily, so maybe that ties into what Mountainman was saying earlier with respect to scheduling. Adams State likely scheduled U. N. Arizona for money. But I don't have any knowledge as to the degree they were compensated.
The NAIA argument was based on what I thought I understood about how teams are organized. You obviously understand that better than I do. Adams State did very well under the auspices of the NAIA, and that has mostly continued as a NCAA member, but likely not to the degree, so you are also correct their success, while significant has been pretty much limited to track & field, and cross country (where they dominate).
They field competitive softball teams, (women's) but their bread & butter would appear to be their track & field & cross country. Football has only been good within the past 3-4 years. And it's still a ? if they will continue to do well, but they were competitive in 2004. Answer your question?

Thank you, it was an interesting read.

For what it's worth, here's how division II teams have done against other divisions since 2001:

IA: 0-1
IAA: 116-255
III: 81-51
NAIA: 183-107

Division II schools give out about 36 scholarships, NAIA schools give out about 24, I think. Division III has no scholarships. That's off the top of my head. There's not much difference between the two. There have been a lot of schools that went to the NCAA in the early 90s thinking that there'd be more money there, but some are going back to the NAIA.

From the above numbers you get the feeling that division II teams are better than NAIA schools, but the difference large like the average difference between IA and I-AA schools. Like I said, division II schools are ranked according to which division they play in order to determine playoff teams and playing NAIA or division III schools hurts them badly, so if you want any hope of an at-large berth, you don't play those teams. Higher division teams get you more points if you can win.

[colorado_loves_football]

Strangely enough, there was an article in today's Valley Courier which referred to Adams State's national championship run.

ASC’s Jeff Geiser leaves a legacy of success
BY LLOYD ENGEN
ALAMOSA â€â€

[Jason G]

Mountainman, I do agree. College football is a great sport. I can't imagine what I would do to sit back and relax on autumn Saturdays without it. College football is probably the only sport where I can sit back and enjoy a game on TV even when it is being contested between two teams that I don't care much for.

To me it's biggest shortcoming is simply that if there are 119 teams classified as Division 1-A then they should all be considered equally and given the same opportunity. Otherwise what is the point of having them all in the same division?

[mountainman]

Hey, Jason G. Yep, I really enjoy the game too. Heck, I even watch Pitt play a couple of times last season.

Your point about the biggest shortcoming is where my perspective is different. I do not believe that all D-1A programs are equal and therefore, to me, considering them as equal would be folly. As far as being given the same opportunity, again my perspective is different. I believe every D-1A program is given the same opportunity. Some programs have just done a better job or made better choices in order to take advantage of the opportunities that are there.

I mean who's choice and/or responsibility is it to build a program to a level of play that is equal to or better than the competition? And who's choice and/or responsibility is it to take advantage of any opportunities that are there? To me, that is the choice and/or responsibility of the individual schools and programs.

For sure, the competition is tough and there is nothing simple or easy about building a program to a level that is equal to the best. But, to me, considering it has taken over a century to raise the level of college football to the levels the best programs play today only demonstrates that it can be done.

I believe that all programs that want to be considered equal should rise to the level of play the best programs demonstrate. That's the reason you've read in some of my previous post I have supported the things in college football that promote excellence and have been against things that would promote mediocrity. In other words, don't bring the best programs down, build the other programs up.

[Spence]

Nice post MM. You are exactly right. With the right commitment any D-1 team can do it. Look at the Miami Hurricanes. They built one of the best programs in the country from nothing. Florida St. was an all girls school at one time. It can be done. It takes hard work and commitment.

What good is it to put a team into a situation they can't handle or they are not ready for?

[mountainman]

Here's a follow-up to an earlier post I made during a discussion Jason G. and I were having.

Ed Pastilong, athletic director at West Virginia announced today that the Mountaineers will face the Eastern Washington Eagles, a 1-AA team, during the 2006 football season.

Eastern Washington is a replacement for Buffalo, which has elected not to fulfill its commitment to play the scheduled game with the Mountaineers. WVU will be compensated for damages. Eastern Washington will receive a guarantee of $450,000 from WVU for the game.

Those damages, in my view anyway, have the potential to be quite severe.

[ktffan]

Here's a follow-up to an earlier post I made during a discussion Jason G. and I were having.

Ed Pastilong, athletic director at West Virginia announced today that the Mountaineers will face the Eastern Washington Eagles, a 1-AA team, during the 2006 football season.

Eastern Washington is a replacement for Buffalo, which has elected not to fulfill its commitment to play the scheduled game with the Mountaineers. WVU will be compensated for damages. Eastern Washington will receive a guarantee of $450,000 from WVU for the game.

Those damages, in my view anyway, have the potential to be quite severe.

I thought the MAC was going to guarentee a replacement for Buffalo.

BTW, the contract signed would give a buy out figure. Usually, it's pretty light. That's why teams schedule other teams when they get a better offer.

[ktffan]

Here's a follow-up to an earlier post I made during a discussion Jason G. and I were having.

Ed Pastilong, athletic director at West Virginia announced today that the Mountaineers will face the Eastern Washington Eagles, a 1-AA team, during the 2006 football season.

Eastern Washington is a replacement for Buffalo, which has elected not to fulfill its commitment to play the scheduled game with the Mountaineers. WVU will be compensated for damages. Eastern Washington will receive a guarantee of $450,000 from WVU for the game.

Those damages, in my view anyway, have the potential to be quite severe.

BTW, you upgraded your schedule here. Eastern Washington is a better team than Buffalo.

[mountainman]

My understanding is the same as you've said. The Eagles do have a good program. My concerns are about how playing a 1-AA team may impact the BCS Standing provided a lot of other factors were to fall into place. It may also turn out that it has no impact at all and my concerns are unfounded.

I too read where the MAC commissioner said the conference would guarantee a game if Buffalo opted out. It will be interesting to see what happened with all that when the details are released to the public.

I believe the buyout for Buffalo was $200k. Evidently that was not an obstacle Buffalo wasn't able to overcome. If it was indeed a matter of money, and it more than likely was, then I would think things such as this have to be chalked up in the 'lessons learned' category.

[ktffan]

My understanding is the same as you've said. The Eagles do have a good program. My concerns are about how playing a 1-AA team may impact the BCS Standing provided a lot of other factors were to fall into place. It may also turn out that it has no impact at all and my concerns are unfounded.

I don't see how it hurts them in the BCS to play a better team. Yes, some computers will drop them because they don't rank I-AA teams in the SOS, however, other computers will reward them for playing a better team. The computers will basically wash. Maybe some of the voters will vote them down, but I doubt it.

[mountainman]

I believe there is potential for things to turn out where a one loss team or even two one loss teams could be taken over an undefeated team, but that's reaching at this point.

There's a whole lot of football to be played before that even has to be considered, so I suppose we'll just have to set back, enjoy the games and see how things turn out.

[ktffan]

I believe there is potential for things to turn out where a one loss team or even two one loss teams could be taken over an undefeated team, but that's reaching at this point. :o

There's a whole lot of football to be played before that even has to be considered, so I suppose we'll just have to set back, enjoy the games and see how things turn out. :D

West Virginia's problem is the conference they are playing in and the lack of a marquee non-conference opponent. The only big name they played last year out of conference beat them pretty bad and it was assumed that they weren't real good because of it until they beat Georgia.

[mountainman]

I agree. The Mountaineers are working on that. If my memory serves me correctly Auburn comes onto the schedule starting next year and then some Big Ten guys, I believe Michigan State and someone else, but don't hold me to that .... maybe it was a Big XII guy and Michigan State ...

The Big East needs to continue to recover from the ACC raid and from what I see they are. Hopefully they will stay the course. Both Louisville and West Virginia should field strong teams this coming season. Pitt had a very good recruiting season and should be better. Syracuse needs to re-establish, there were lots of problems other than the impact of the raid in that program. USF (watch out for these guys), UConn, Rutgers and Cincinnati, especially the Bearcats, need to continue to improve.

I hope the conference doesn't run out of time. There are forces working against them that's for sure. The ACC in particular would love to capture the northeast TV market. I cannot help but wonder if Buffalo recruiting against Syracuse had anything to do with their decision to dump a game with a Big East opponent? One never knows what goes on behind closed doors ..... I believe that Conway Twittie (sp) once had a hit song about those type of dealings.

[colorado_loves_football]

I am not too aware of the feelings of Big 10 fans, but it seems that they think of Penn St as not a real part of the big ten. That is why I feel the Big East should really try to get Penn State and Notre Dame. Instant big names and recognition. I really doubt that it would happen, but I would like that. I would also dump Cincinatti for Marshall.

Excellent point, Rolltide, but rather than 'dumping' Cincinnati, why not just 'add' Marshall (and Navy) to get to the 12-team 'allotment' necessary for a conference championship?

Like it or not, what the ACC did, will help the ACC be more competitive.
And yes, initially it hurt the Big East, but it would appear they have since recovered, due in part to the acquisitions of C-USA members Louisville, Cincinnati, and S. Florida. C-USA responded by selecting teams geographically 'appropriate' at least in the western division.

UCF & Marshall are likely mis-represented in C-USA, geograhically. Marshall would make an excellent Big East member. UCF, I believe is more geographically 'appropriate' to the Sun Belt. That would allow Army & Temple to 'join' C-USA, so it would all even out.

We can all argue whether the 'merits' of 12-team conferences surpass those of 9-team ones, but the evidence would appear to favor the 12-team arrangement, at present. One team is selected as a legitimate 'representative' to the BCS, in most cases. Even in years where there isn't one 'dominant' team, the 12-team format effectively picks one team as a 'viable' candidate. And, if adopted it would address the dilemma of having co-champions to the Big Ten. So, I would prefer that every confernece have a conference championship game, for reasons already outlined.

Since the Big East is still at a disadvantage, competitively-speaking it would appear a possiblity, they might choose to add teams to 'secure' their spot in the BCS. Notre Dame is still an independent, but they have close ties to the Big East Conference, and it would appear, to me, anyway, they would be more likely to keep those, than to set up an 'exclusive' deal with a competing conference. Notre Dame, in my opinion, is the 'key', for the Big East to remain in the BCS. So, I belive it's simply a matter of time before Notre Dame does, in fact join the Big East. If and when it happens, I believe the Big East will maybe also take a 'risk' in inviting Penn St. They are a 'traditionally' independent school, which makes them much more 'appropriate' to the Big East, from a traditionalists' perspective, than to the Big Ten.

[ktffan]

That seems like it could work as well. I don't know how big the big east wants to be though. I think Temple has already joined the MAC starting next year.

The Big East is already a 16 team conference in basketball. Adding teams is problematic. The Big East is likely to split over the next could years due to this. Who knows what will happen if that comes about.