Southern Miss taking on 7 bowl teams in 2006

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Postby Spence » Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:56 pm

colorado_loves_football wrote:I posted the 'final' AP poll for comparison purposes.
I don't necessarily disagree that there were likely teams better suited for the BCS that year. That's never been my point.
I simply believe that Pittsburgh qualified itself based on the rules, and therefore 'earned' their spot in the BCS.
I might have taken Boston College over Pittsburgh, but Boston College lost to Pittsburgh. So, I think they made the right choice, personally.
I also looked into how conferences were ranked that year.
Believe it or not, Big East was more competitive, top-to-bottom than any of the other conferences. Closest, I believe was C-USA.
Nevertheless, I think the evidence is pretty conclusive, that Pittsburgh was the 'best' proposition for the BCS at the time. They were ranked #25, final AP poll. (after the bowls).


My point has always been the best teams should go. You say the big east was most competitive top to bottom that year. That is what we differ on. I don't compare teams according to how well the play within their conference compared to other teams play within their conferences. I compare based on how competitive they are (and would be) nationally.

I don't think Pitt was the best possible team the BCS could have picked that year. I believe that had they not had an automatic bid they wouldn't have been considered for the BCS at all.

What were they ranked before the bowls were played? I thought I remembered 20th, but I don't know for sure? Anyway Pitt had no business playing in the BCS in '04. Ohio State was better then Pitt and Ohio State wasn't good enough that year either.
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Postby ktffan » Fri Apr 07, 2006 9:27 am

Spence wrote:
Tell me how Pittsburgh wasn't a deserving representative to the BCS, I'm interested, I think you are simply modifying your position to the results.
I thought Pittsburgh was a worthy representative, especially after they beat both W. Virginia and Boston College. They needed 'help' obviously, from Syracuse, but after that happened, I don't think anyone would argue that Pittsburgh was the 'best' representative, based upon their record. I believe they were also the highest ranked team, in the Big East. Maybe they weren't 'best' in terms of overall ability, but I think they were the 'best' representative the Big East had, 2004. Which team would you have selected?


I think they were the only ranked team in the B-East that year. I believe they were 20 or 22(not sure, but that is close) They were the best representitive from their conference, but the conference wasn't very good that year. I am not modifying my position. I have never believed that teams who aren't among the best teams in the nation should go. The B-East has an automatic bid, so they got to go, but it doesn't mean they deserved to go.


They were ranked #19/#20 going into the bowls. BC was ranked #25 and was the first team in the "others" in the coaches poll.

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Postby colorado_loves_football » Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:10 pm

Spence wrote:My point has always been the best teams should go. You say the big east was most competitive top to bottom that year. That is what we differ on. I don't compare teams according to how well the play within their conference compared to other teams play within their conferences. I compare based on how competitive they are (and would be) nationally.

I don't think Pitt was the best possible team the BCS could have picked that year. I believe that had they not had an automatic bid they wouldn't have been considered for the BCS at all.

What were they ranked before the bowls were played? I thought I remembered 20th, but I don't know for sure? Anyway Pitt had no business playing in the BCS in '04. Ohio State was better then Pitt and Ohio State wasn't good enough that year either.
When I said the Big East was the 'best' I meant to say they were the best of the 'non-BCS' conferences. I should have clarified that, and I apologize for not doing so.
But according to that webpage, which ranks conferences according to their membership, they were still fairly competitive, to what they were in 2003. That's maybe only one way to 'size them up' competitively, but I found that interesting, anyway. Another way to look at it, is that as a conference they were likely more competitive than you are giving them credit for.
So, that would imply that Pittsburgh, although likely not as good as say, Virginia Tech, was still a competitive football team, 2004. Boston College was still a member, and would likely have made a more 'respectible' representative, but they lost to Syracuse. Had they beaten them, they would almost certainly have been ranked top-20.
So, Pittsburgh at #23, was the representative.
We can argue all day long about how 'good' they were. That actually isn't my point anyway. They qualified under the rules. Even if you 'modify' the BCS so that the top-6 conferences are represented, Pittsburgh still gets in, that was the point I was trying to make.
Louisville was an outstanding football team, but unfortunately played in a relatively 'weak' conference, competitively. Utah, maybe was an example of a team that 'earned' their bid through competitive play.
So, we agree more than we disagree, but like it or not, Pittsburgh was qualified, more qualified than any other Big East team.
They 'earned' their bid. Utah was the better team, however.

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Postby Spence » Fri Apr 07, 2006 3:03 pm

They 'earned' their bid. Utah was the better team, however.


Utah was definitely better.
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Postby colorado_loves_football » Fri Apr 07, 2006 5:24 pm

Spence wrote:
They 'earned' their bid. Utah was the better team, however.


Utah was definitely better.
Certainly, but that wasn't apparent or at least not definite until after the Fiesta Bowl was played.
I'm not arguing that Pittsburgh was necessarily a BCS 'quality' team. I just believe that they were a legitimate representative, in 2004. But, if the requirement was solely based upon ranking, then an argument can be made for Louisville (or Boise St) being included. I don't necessarily have a problem with that, and if the ranking is 'fair' maybe it would be a better way to select the BCS 'field'. But, we should all remember that W. Virginia while an outstanding football team, overall wasn't ranked very high, in the BCS.

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Postby Spence » Fri Apr 07, 2006 6:23 pm

Certainly, but that wasn't apparent or at least not definite until after the Fiesta Bowl was played.


Most people I knew and most people on this board at that time thought Pitt would lose.

West Virginia wasn't ranked in the twenties like Pitt was, and West Virginia clearly had a pretty good team this year. I remember Pitt that year and they weren't good. Maybe the reason that WVU wasn't ranked higher was because of the poor showing by Pitt. Maybe the voters were gunshy. That is the problem WVU will have this year. Trying to prove they are good enough amid a schedule that could be stronger. It isn't fair, especially in light of the win over Georgia, but it will go down that way. West Virginia will need to dominate a few of those teams to make a championship run. They are in position to make a run though.
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

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Postby colorado_loves_football » Sun Apr 09, 2006 5:54 pm

Spence wrote:
Most people I knew and most people on this board at that time thought Pitt would lose.

West Virginia wasn't ranked in the twenties like Pitt was, and West Virginia clearly had a pretty good team this year. I remember Pitt that year and they weren't good. Maybe the reason that WVU wasn't ranked higher was because of the poor showing by Pitt. Maybe the voters were gunshy. That is the problem WVU will have this year. Trying to prove they are good enough amid a schedule that could be stronger. It isn't fair, especially in light of the win over Georgia, but it will go down that way. West Virginia will need to dominate a few of those teams to make a championship run. They are in position to make a run though.
Pittsburgh was maybe fortunate that Louisville wasn't already a Big East member, if they had been, then Louisville likely would have occupied the spot in the BCS. BCS is based primarily upon representation. That's how it was organized. Pittsburgh isn't the only team to be selected that was ranked fairly low, Florida State, last year held a similar position.
But, as with Pittsburgh, I think they 'deserved' their bid.
Boston College was in position to win the Big East, but lost to Syracuse, even after losing to Pittsburgh earlier in the year. I don't see how anyone can legitimately argue Pittsburgh didn't 'earn' their bid. They did lose to Syracuse, however, so maybe Syracuse ought to have gone?
It's possible someone could maybe make an argument for W. Virginia, too since they only lost to Boston College and Pittsburgh, but they knew going into those games what was at stake.
For all those reasons, I still believe Pittsburgh was a 'worthy' representative to the BCS. It's a case reminiscent of how TCU was overlooked last year, but applied to Louisville. Both teams were 10-1 were likely better (or as good as) a BCS representative (Pittsburgh, 2004, FSU 2005). But that's how the BCS is organized. It would appear to support my opinion that the BCS should adopt a more 'competitive' arrangement whereby any team can legitimately qualify itself. You can't base your whole argument on one team. Pittsburgh maybe wasn't the 'ideal' representative, but they went.
Florida State, actually wasn't too bad, nearly beating Penn St, in the Orange Bowl. It might just be an example of Utah being a lot better.
Sure, they were competitive, overall, but they also were 'lucky' to play most of their 'key' games at home. I say TCU, 2005, was likely as good as Utah, 2004. They will play in SLC, this year, will likely decide the MWC. Btw, I've never supported allowing the MWC a 'direct' bid to the BCS. My proposal relies on competitive bowl pairings, prior to the BCS, to select 'deserving' representatives.
The reality is, if applied, it likely would have selected a more competitive BCS, than the 'traditional' model.
The Liberty Bowl champion, in general would make a very good BCS representative, even last year I believe Tulsa was a deserving representative, at 9-4. We disagree on that point, obviously, but my proposal relies on competiitve pairings of teams.
TCU was ignored completely, by the Liberty Bowl, Holiday Bowl, Cotton Bowl, Alamo Bowl, the Houston Bowl invited them, mostly out of necessity. They were maybe 'fortunate' to play a 'competitive' team in Iowa St, but they probably 'deserved' a more competitive pairing.
TCU maybe isn't exceptional, by most people's standards, but they are consistently good, and I believe they likely win any of the aforementioned bowl pairings. I think they were a better team than Oregon, Fresno St, Alabama, Michigan or Tulsa. That's why I would prefer an arrangement that gives them that opportunity.


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