Post-season Play-offs

Say it all here
Forum rules
NOTICE: Please be sure to check the CFP Message Board Rules and Regulations and the Read Me page before posting.
colorado_loves_football

Postby colorado_loves_football » Fri Feb 10, 2006 3:13 pm

mountainman wrote:Well, this may be the first time you have agreed with something I've said, but this would not be the first time I've agreed with something you have said. :shock:

To me, the biggest difference you and I have are how the words "fair" and "equal" are defined and used. :?

If I understand your position correctly, your position is that it would be fair if every D-1 conference champion received a BCS bid. I agree with the notion that that would be fair, but only from a narrow perspective. Since I do not believe that all the conferences are equal, from a competitive or a broader college football perspective, I do not believe it would be fair to either the BCS conferences or the non-BCS conferences or to college football. At this point in time in college football I believe it would promote mediocrity.

That's the reason I support the BCS 'system'. :wink:
I compilment the Big East for raising the 'competitive bar' this year with respect to the BCS. Had W. Virginia not been selected, they would still have had a 'worthy' representative, in Louisiville. That's what compeitition does, it separates the wheat from the chaff, and that's a good thing in general.
I'm simply saying give every team the same opportunity you are giving W. Virginia, or in other words, a 'fair' way to be selected to the BCS, every year. TCU wouldn't have been an 'automatic' participant, anyway, they would have had to 'earn' their way into the BCS, similar to how every other team did, had they been given the opportunity.
Someone tell me how this isnt' fair?
Boise St. wasn't selected either, this year, or last year, either, for that matter. They were at least sufficiently capable of 'earning' a BCS bid, through competitive play, if their Liberty Bowl pairing against Louisville means anything.
Similarly, TCU 'earned' the right to be selected, and ought to have at least been given an opportunity to play a team of comparable talent & ability. Iowa St. was decent but 4-4 Big XII isn't going to raise any eyebrows. That TCU beat them says something, however. They were at least as good, if not better than Colorado, and maybe even Nebraska.
And TCU likely would have been in position to win the Big XII N. division, just as ISU was, but for an OT loss to Kansas, in Kansas.
Why should TCU have to play OSU's schedule? If they were a Big Ten team, then maybe I'd agree to it, but they aren't so drop it.
They play Nortwestern, and beat them fairly regularly, so use that as a 'gauge' if you have to, to approximate TCU's talent level.
They beat Northwestern a year Northwestern was a Big Ten Co-Champion. Northwestern eventually got hammered by Nebraska in the Alamo bowl, but shouldn't take anything away from the significance of it.
TCU can compete head-to-head they've proven it, you just haven't noticed.
Their record against OSU is admirable, really, given they played nearly every game in Columbus OH. Have OSU schedule TCU, outside Columbus, maybe it's a different result? But they don't schedule TCU, so it's a moot point, although they did schedule San Diego St.
So, it's not about who you play, it's about how you play, that matters.
TCU didn't play OSU, haven't in a long time, which is actually another reason i prefer a playoff, it would maybe be the only 'fair' way to see how each team compares, other than on paper.
It might have even happened this year, had TCU been admitted. OSU vs. TCU would have been a 'draw' in any respect.
You can argue all you want about whether or not TCU would be competitive, but until it happens, it's still a debate of words.
TCU is 1-4-1 overall. Not great, not terrible either.
It's likely a rematch would follow that precedent. that gives TCU something of 1.5/6 chance or roughly a 25% chance of a W. I'll take those odds.
Last edited by colorado_loves_football on Fri Feb 10, 2006 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mountainman

Postby mountainman » Fri Feb 10, 2006 3:31 pm

No, West Virginia being a member of a BCS conference is not the reason I support the BCS. I'm glad the Mountaineers are, but that's not the reason. :)

I'm a Marshall University fan also. :wink:

*************************************************************
EDIT:

By the way, The Thundering Herd have publicly stated their aspirations of one day joining a BCS conference. They have a plan, although in their haste they stubbed their toe and got smacked by the NCAA (lost a good coach over it too). They are serious about this, going about it the right way and are back on track. New Head Football Coach .... nice job of getting back on track.

Take a look at Marshall's schedule next season. It's not unusual for them to schedule the good teams.
Last edited by mountainman on Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Spence
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 21256
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:52 pm
Location: Chillicothe, Ohio (Ohio's First Capital)
Contact:

Postby Spence » Fri Feb 10, 2006 3:31 pm

HaveTCU play OSU's schedule? Have OSU play TCU's schedule.
OSU might not beat Utah in SLC. If memory serves, seems to me OSU has lost to MWC teams in the past. They only play them in Columbus.
They haven't proven they can win on the road.
TCU doesnt' play in the Big Ten but they've beaten Northwestern consistenty. Use that as a 'gauge' if you want. Northwestern is comparable to TCU talent-wise.


We would be glad to play TCU's schedule only it would hurt our SOS to the point that we wouldn't get in the BCS.

Ohio State has beaten Miami (Florida), Penn State, Michigan, Kansas St., Oklahoma St. and Notre Dame among others in the last 4 years while not at home. How about TCU? Don't give me any of that.

You didn't answer my question. How many games would TCU have won playing Ohio State's schedule this year? Or Texas', Georgia's, USC's, Penn State's, Florida State's, West Virginia's, and Notre Dame's. Be honest about it and then tell me why strength odf schedule doesn't matter.

By the way, Northwestern has been a door mat in the Big 10 for almost it's entire tenure in the conference. They are 14-56 in 70 years in the Big 10.

Ohio State is 12-2-1 lifetime against the MWC. That dog won't hunt.
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

colorado_loves_football

Postby colorado_loves_football » Fri Feb 10, 2006 3:48 pm

Spence wrote:We would be glad to play TCU's schedule only it would hurt our SOS to the point that we wouldn't get in the BCS.

Ohio State has beaten Miami (Florida), Penn State, Michigan, Kansas St., Oklahoma St. and Notre Dame among others in the last 4 years while not at home. How about TCU? Don't give me any of that.

You didn't answer my question. How many games would TCU have won playing Ohio State's schedule this year? Or Texas', Georgia's, USC's, Penn State's, Florida State's, West Virginia's, and Notre Dame's. Be honest about it and then tell me why strength odf schedule doesn't matter.

By the way, Northwestern has been a door mat in the Big 10 for almost it's entire tenure in the conference. They are 14-56 in 70 years in the Big 10.

Ohio State is 12-2-1 lifetime against the MWC. That dog won't hunt.
OSU is 12-2-1 lifetime against MWC opponents, but most likely those games were all played in Columbus. 11-0 lifetime against MWC, but only 4-2-1 vs. Air Force-TCU. Sounds like your dog won't hunt a 'good' MWC team, or even an 'average' one, Air Force was 6-5 the year they played OSU.
For the record, here's a sampling of TCU's road wins:
2000: Northwestern 41-14, Navy 24-0, SMU 62-7
2001: North Texas 19-5, SMU 38-10, Houston 34-17, S. Mississippi 14-12
2002: Northwestern 48-24, Army 46-27, Louisville 45-31, CSU 17-3
2003: Tulane 38-35, Arizona 13-10, S. Florida 13-10, Houston 62-55
2004: Army 21-17
No, they aren't beating Florida State, but they don't schedule Florida State, either. Looks like Northwestern can't beat TCU to save their life.
They're Big Ten, like it or not, I don't really care how they compare to OSU. You said, have TCU play a Big Ten regularly, well they have.
Sounds like maybe you can't admit when your'e wrong.

User avatar
Spence
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 21256
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:52 pm
Location: Chillicothe, Ohio (Ohio's First Capital)
Contact:

Postby Spence » Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:17 pm

Sounds like maybe you can't admit when your'e wrong.



If I were wrong a would admit it. I have done so on several occasions.


2000: Northwestern 41-14, Navy 24-0, SMU 62-7
2001: North Texas 19-5, SMU 38-10, Houston 34-17, S. Mississippi 14-12
2002: Northwestern 48-24, Army 46-27, Louisville 45-31, CSU 17-3
2003: Tulane 38-35, Arizona 13-10, S. Florida 13-10, Houston 62-55
2004: Army 21-17



Here is an example of some of Ohio State's road wins since 2000

Notre Dame, Miami Florida, Penn State, Michigan, Oklahoma St., Texas Tech, Kansas St., N.C. State, Wisconsin, Iowa, Minnesota, and Michigan State.

I can't believe you are even attempting to compare the two using recent histories. It would be funny if you weren't serious.

Also included since 2000 is 4 bowl wins, 3 BCS wins, and 1 National Championship. This dog can hunt at a high level.

You never did answer the question of how TCU would do playing Ohio State's schedule? You can pretend they would all be home games if you would like.
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

mountainman

Postby mountainman » Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:32 pm

Admitting you are wrong when your wife tells you that you are wrong is not allowed to be counted as admitting you are wrong. :?

That goes into either the confession or agreement categories. :oops:

Just want to ensure we're all on the same page here. :wink:

User avatar
Spence
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 21256
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:52 pm
Location: Chillicothe, Ohio (Ohio's First Capital)
Contact:

Postby Spence » Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:43 pm

Admitting you are wrong when your wife tells you that you are wrong is not allowed to be counted as admitting you are wrong.


If it did count I would never be right. :lol:
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

colorado_loves_football

Postby colorado_loves_football » Fri Feb 10, 2006 6:10 pm

rolltide wrote:I think the point is that they don't get the respect of a FSU or a big-time team because they aren't beating those kind of teams. Northwestern is not a very good team. They have to play the FSU's of the world to get the respect they want. FSU was the same way. They had to take on a lot of people that were high end programs and start beating them to gain respect. Same with Miami. Now these are two of the biggest programs going. I don't think anyone is saying TCU is not good, they are good, but to get into the BCS they will have to impress everyone. The win over Oklahoma was a great start, now they must put a couple of teams like that on the schedule every year. This year they have Texas Tech, they are good, and they still have an open slot. I would advise them to put a big name team in there. That way if they beat those teams they will get recognition and consideration when BCS slots are being filled. Road wins over Army by 4 points are not going to get them in the BCS even if they go undefeated because almost any team can beat Army. No offense at all, I think TCU is a good program, but they must prove they belong with the big boys. The only way to do it is beat the big boys on the field.
Rolltide, you say TCU is 'good' then you say they need to schedule 'big boys', like FSU. Maybe they can't schedule FSU, aren't they considered to be one of the best programs, competitively-speaking, in the entire United States? It's like telling someone to schedule Notre Dame, good idea, if you are allowed. Which many aren't.
I, for one, am getting tired of defending TCU. They have already shown they have the ability to play on a high-level. Just because you don't like their schedule, really isn't relevant. Didn't Alabama nearly lose to Texas Tech? I'm asking, because from my perspective Texas Tech isn't very good, compared to TCU. I'm sure you'll disagree with me, and you may even have evidence to support your side, but Texas Tech doesn't impress me that much. They just put a lot of points on the board, although Alabama did hold them to 10, says something about how good their defense is. That being said, Alabama didn't 'dominate' Texas Tech, and likely wouldn't have dominated TCU, either, but I guess we'll never know for sure.
Alabama had their chance, to win the SEC. I actually was pulling for them, in their game against LSU, a game Alabama should have won, and nearly did. But too little, too late, at least for an SEC title.
But they did win the Cotton Bowl, and that's all that matters.
I'm fair in my analysis of other teams. I wish you were all the same, in return, but you aren't. Did Alabama play FSU? Just wondering.
You are all so hypocritical. Maybe Alabama needs to play a tougher non-conference schedule. TCU played Oklahoma, a pretty good team, regardless, and won. Can't do much better than that.
Last edited by colorado_loves_football on Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Spence
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 21256
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:52 pm
Location: Chillicothe, Ohio (Ohio's First Capital)
Contact:

Postby Spence » Fri Feb 10, 2006 6:28 pm

I would hope TCU's home winning percentage would be better then Ohio State's because TCU plays a much weaker schedule. TCU can't come up with the cash to get a good team to play them at home.

You never answered my question, How would TCU do if they played Ohio State's schedule?
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

colorado_loves_football

Postby colorado_loves_football » Fri Feb 10, 2006 6:36 pm

Spence wrote:I would hope TCU's home winning percentage would be better then Ohio State's because TCU plays a much weaker schedule. TCU can't come up with the cash to get a good team to play them at home.

You never answered my question, How would TCU do if they played Ohio State's schedule?
Spence, if you want to figure out how TCU would do in the Big Ten, I think the data exists somewhere. But if you do that, be fair in your analysis. You can't discard data you don't like, whether or not you think Northwestern is any good is irrelevant, they beat them, and beat them consistently. They don't play OSU, or at least not since 1958, so it's going to be hard for you to estimate where they would be competitively-speaking, but you might be able to get a vague idea, through direct comparison of years they played common opponents, such as San Diego State, this year.
Both teams won, Ohio State won by a larger margin, obviously, but they also played them in Columbus. And in my opinion, a win is a win, is a win, so they are 'equal' in terms of that common opponent.
Use years they both played Northwestern, but again, simply count a win as a win, and a loss as a loss, if you are going to be fair. There really is no such thing as a 'quality' win, that's why they took it out of the BCS.
Every team plays at the same level, that's why they call it I-A.
I am of the opinion triangulation can be used, for comparison purposes, and I think its a fairly accurate way to gauge a team's strength.
For example, TCU played Army in NY, won. Iowa State played Army, also, in Iowa and won. Those should count the same, even though TCU's win was by a larger amount is inconsequential, and I think that showed in how they played. Those teams (TCU and Iowa St.) played to a similar level, competitively. But TCU did win, and that's what matters.
After all is said and done, all that matters is the W or the L.
As far as I can remember extra credit stopped happening in Jr. High, anyway. So it doesn't apply here, either. That being said, I am personalyl more impresssed when a team dominates another team, on a level playing field, but that isn't how a team is gauged. It's all W. and L.
Last edited by colorado_loves_football on Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Spence
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 21256
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:52 pm
Location: Chillicothe, Ohio (Ohio's First Capital)
Contact:

Postby Spence » Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:02 pm

I never said Ohio State was better then Miami, Notre Dame, Michigan or a host of other top programs around the country. They aren't. They do play at the same level, and they play similar competition. TCU does not play the same level of competition as most top level programs across they country. If you can figure out how to construct an arguement without attacking me personally you can try again.

You never answered my question, How would TCU do if they played Ohio State's schedule?

You don't seem to want to answer the question. Reply after reply, but no answer.

By the way, if Ohio State went 10-1 with TCU's schedule and SOS last season they wouldn't have made it into the BCS either. Who you play matters.
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

Guest

Postby Guest » Sat Feb 11, 2006 2:46 pm

Spence wrote:I never said Ohio State was better then Miami, Notre Dame, Michigan or a host of other top programs around the country. They aren't. They do play at the same level, and they play similar competition. TCU does not play the same level of competition as most top level programs across they country. If you can figure out how to construct an arguement without attacking me personally you can try again.

You never answered my question, How would TCU do if they played Ohio State's schedule?

You don't seem to want to answer the question. Reply after reply, but no answer.

By the way, if Ohio State went 10-1 with TCU's schedule and SOS last season they wouldn't have made it into the BCS either. Who you play matters.
Spence, I never meant to attack you personally, but I apologize if you took it that way, I felt like you were attacking me, so I struck back.
I have no idea how TCU would do in the Big Ten, but I already told you to use Northwestern as a point of reference. If the popular opinion is that Northwestern isn't any good, then I guess my argument isn't a very good one, but I think they are decent, myself.
That being said, OSU isn't untouchable. Where they've done well, in my opinion, is in the BCS games, where they play teams of comparable ability. That hasn't happened to TCU yet, so that remains my point of contention, give them the same opportunity, then come back and tell me they aren't good enough.
As far as TCU's non-conference schedule, I think you owe ME an apology, as they aren't playing inferior opponents to 'pad' their schedule, and you need to quit using that as the crux of your argument.
I never really realized until now, just how hypocritical that is, although give it to OSU for scheduling Texas, last year. TCU didn't schedule Texas, but they scheduled Oklahoma, and in any other year but last year that would have been a 'stronger' opponent. They beat OU, regardless, and they play Texas Tech this year.
There's no guarantee TCU will win. All I want is a fair analysis, of TCU's talent level. Nothing more, nothing less. And I think I"ve yet to get it from anyone here.
Again I apologize if you felt offended, that's never my intention, and my statement, about OSU's schedule is wrong, they play a VERY strong interconference schedule, and a relatively weak non-conference schedule. You can't include bowl games, as non-conference games.
They are a whole another category, but I do believe they count towards a team's season's record, obviously, but non as 'non-conference' scheduled opponents, they weren't scheduled.

User avatar
Spence
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 21256
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:52 pm
Location: Chillicothe, Ohio (Ohio's First Capital)
Contact:

Postby Spence » Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:53 pm

As far as TCU's non-conference schedule, I think you owe ME an apology, as they aren't playing inferior opponents to 'pad' their schedule, and you need to quit using that as the crux of your argument.


I never thought for a minute that TCU is trying to pad their schedule. I wasn't implying that at all. Most mid-major conferences schedule better non conference opponents then the majors do. That is something that has always bugged me about the major conferences.

I did imply that TCU's W-L record would not have been better then Ohio State's if they played the same schedule and that is true.

The problem TCU has in getting their strength of schedule up is that they need their opponents, especially the ones the beat, to beat better opponents. It isn't a knock on TCU, it is a reality of the conference in which they play. TCU could very well have been good enough to play in the BCS this year, but the strength of their schedule worked against them.

Not only do the teams you play on your schedule count, but how well they play through the course of their schedule counts also. The major conferences are consider major conferences because they have several(not all) strong teams in the same conference. None of the majors are there by birth right. The most successful programs in the history of college football reside in these conferences. They play each other during the season, so it makes since that most years if they win their "perceived" strength will make it easier to be considered for the top bowl games.

This isn't a knock on TCU or any other mid major program, but the only way to climb the BCS ladder in college football is to play and beat ranked teams who continue to do well for the rest of the season. That is how Utah made it in last year, they beat teams who ended up doing well over all in the season. TCU had a good team last year. If they were a young team and have a lot of returning players that should help them in the rankings this season. If they take that opportunity and continue to dominate their conference and those teams play better over all, they will have an opportunity to get considered again. That is the way it works in college football.

Some of the "inner workings" I agree with, some of it I do not. whether I agree with it or not doesn't change the fact that it is the way things work in CFB. Playoff or Bowls aside, that will never change.

There is no need to apologize to me because you didn't cross the line. It didn't offend me, if I thought you crossed the line I would have sent you a PM and edited you post. Sometimes when I get a chance to push someone's button and get them going I do it. It makes things a little more interesting and I had some extra time yesterday. If I took it to far, I sorry about that because I was just having a little fun by pushing you button. No harm intended.

(i would have got a crap load of money for that post had I not already meant my quota for the day. :lol: )
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

colorado_loves_football

Postby colorado_loves_football » Sat Feb 11, 2006 4:09 pm

Spence wrote:The problem TCU has in getting their strength of schedule up is that they need their opponents, especially the ones the beat, to beat better opponents. It isn't a knock on TCU, it is a reality of the conference in which they play. TCU could very well have been good enough to play in the BCS this year, but the strength of their schedule worked against them.

Not only do the teams you play on your schedule count, but how well they play through the course of their schedule counts also. The major conferences are consider major conferences because they have several(not all) strong teams in the same conference. None of the majors are there by birth right. The most successful programs in the history of college football reside in these conferences. They play each other during the season, so it makes since that most years if they win their "perceived" strength will make it easier to be considered for the top bowl games.

This isn't a knock on TCU or any other mid major program, but the only way to climb the BCS ladder in college football is to play and beat ranked teams who continue to do well for the rest of the season. That is how Utah made it in last year, they beat teams who ended up doing well over all in the season. TCU had a good team last year. If they were a young team and have a lot of returning players that should help them in the rankings this season. If they take that opportunity and continue to dominate their conference and those teams play better over all, they will have an opportunity to get considered again. That is the way it works in college football.
Spence, I'm not offended, so call off the dogs, whether or not they can hunt. I'm not a rabbit, or a quail, either, but I guess I am a frog, that means you might need a 'net' (internet) to catch me.

For all the argument about competitive play, lets' look at FSU's schedule:

Florida State University
2006 FOOTBALL SCHEDULE
SCHEDULE TENTATIVE AND SUBJECT TO CHANGE
9-4-06 at Miami FL (Mon.)
9-9-06 TROY
9-16-06 CLEMSON
9-23-06 RICE
10-5-06 at North Carolina State (Thur.)
10-14-06 at Duke
10-21-06 BOSTON COLLEGE
10-28-06 at Maryland
11-4-06 VIRGINIA
11-11-06 WAKE FOREST
11-18-06 WESTERN MICHIGAN
11-25-06 FLORIDA

What does this really say about the state of competitive play?
I like how they play Miami, early in the year, but other than that, I'm not very impressed. Two home games, against Rice and Troy St.
The only two games, non-ACC I'm interested in are the W. Michigan game, could be interesting, and the Florida game, late in the year.
And I think it becomes a lot more apparent why the ACC took BC, Va. Tech, and Miami away from the Big East Conference. Take those games away, and you're not left with much, competitively-speaking.

But give FSU credit for winning the ACC outright, they 'earned' their BCS bid. That's why I favor conference championship games, they are a 'fair' and non-prejudicial way to select a representative to the BCS.

User avatar
Spence
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 21256
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:52 pm
Location: Chillicothe, Ohio (Ohio's First Capital)
Contact:

Postby Spence » Sat Feb 11, 2006 5:41 pm

Spence, I'm not offended, so call off the dogs, whether or not they can hunt. I'm not a rabbit, or a quail, either, but I guess I am a frog, that means you might need a 'net' (internet) to catch me.


Or a gig. :lol:

Miami
Clemson
NC State
BC
Maryland
Virginia
Florida

These are all teams that will help Florida St. strength of schedule because they will beat enough teams that are ranked that it will in turn help Fla. St.

That is the difference in schedule strength. If you take how many ranked teams TCU's and their opponents beat and compare them to Florida. State and their opponents record you will see what I'm talking about.

This isn't a campaign against TCU even though you may think it is, it is a dry comparison of strength.
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain


Return to “General Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 23 guests