Exactly why I don't like Politics

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Spence
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Re: Exactly why I don't like Politics

Postby Spence » Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:45 pm

At least Patrick Moynihan was a common sense liberal (if there is such an animal) he did deal with the reality of his beliefs. He did try to put together something to pay for what he wanted. I don't think anyone should fall in line with anyone just because they belong to a certain political party. It is just so hard today to find someone real. They promise everything at no cost. Everything has a price. We would be lots better off if we remembered that. I have a partner that can't seem to understand that concept.
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

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Re: Exactly why I don't like Politics

Postby Spence » Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:18 pm

I don't know anything about Austrian economics so I have to plead ignorance on the issue. I will look into it and will probably have an opinion. :lol:

I, like you do believe that absolute power corrupts, it does. Men think they can guide men to do what is right (according to what they think it right). The problem is that the more power they get and the more people push back at his ideas the more he tries to "enforce" his will. It never works out. Socialism and Communism are often taken over by facism for that very reason. That is why we have a two party system. The founding fathers intended for the pendulum to swing back and forth. Neither side is ever supposed to "win" the war. We need liberals and conservatives for our system to work. Most of all, though, we need people of integrity to hold positions of power. We also need people serve for their time and go. I don't think the founding fathers envisioned career politicians. I think they envisioned citizens serving for a time and returning to their lives. President Washington set the precedent by leaving after two terms. I think a problem now is that we have made "serving" our country a career choice. We have given those who serve at the highest levels of government the best retirement plans, the best health care, the best travel plans, and the best postage perks. We have even made helping people get elected a well paying job. I don't think we can fix what is wrong with government until we get them to address these issue. Serving used to mean that, now it is a welfare program for rich mostly white lawyers.
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

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Re: Exactly why I don't like Politics

Postby Spence » Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:42 am

Donovan, I am very intrigued by Mises and Austrian economics. I have always been in favor of a mostly laissez faire economic system. It is a tough system to go all in on though, without believing that the more money and power a person of business gets the more they try to invoke a more Keynesian view, which has failed miserably for small business and private citizens in this country. I read an over view, not nearly enough to form an opinion, but It makes me want to look into it further. Thanks for the heads up.
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

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Re: Exactly why I don't like Politics

Postby donovan » Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:37 am

Spence....as you will find out...the University of Chicago is one of the great economic departments where Hayek, Milton Friedman and others taught, all Austrian economists. The Von Mises Institute Auburn, AL has more information than one would want. Like all philosophies, some new comers try to improve on basic principles, but the basic premise is based on individual freedom and the rights of others.

If anyone wants to read an inspiring classic essay then I suggest reading "The Law" by Frederic Bastiat.

http://mises.org/books/thelaw.pdf
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Re: Exactly why I don't like Politics

Postby Derek » Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:05 pm

donovan wrote: I can not imagine four more years of what we have not. The rule of law has been replaced by the rule of regulation.


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Re: Exactly why I don't like Politics

Postby Derek » Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:12 pm

Good points all....Fortunately, most polls show Obama to be a one term-er, if the election were held today. And there are even some Dem's (who know how to face reality) that are crying for Hillary to replace him on the ticket, not that that would be any better.

But you never know what can happen in 10 months.

And with all of these recess appointments and other regulation that's just made up off the cuff.....IMO.....We are NOT heading towards European Socialism.....we are heading towards Venezuela with leaders being continually picked by their predecessor and maybe maintaining a facsimile of "choice".
They’re either going to run the ball here or their going to pass it.

The fewer rules a coach has, the fewer rules there are for players to break.

See, well ya see, the thing is, he should have caught that ball. But the ball is bigger than his hands.

- John Madden

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Re: Exactly why I don't like Politics

Postby WoVeU » Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:34 am

I found no flaws in the construct and study of Economics as delivered by Keynes (JMK). The cornerstones of his philosophies is the natural economy (free) model. And that left to its own devices the natural economy will run through huge swings, peaks and troughs...and this is an absolute truth best presented by empirical study and observation. (And further backed by applying sociological and psychological interactions of people within a society and economy.) One problem with JMK applications is the method for suppressing or stimulating (unnaturally) the economy by sanctioning bodies, which he himself admitted leaves much room for error because of timing, measuring, and reacting all under the scope of human interpretation and action. Then you go over to the Austrian school and my big problem with it is the near absolute shunning of empirical measure and thereby historic evidence. Who does this sound exactly like...uber-liberals...who want to pontificate and run their upper holes for hours on end without the offering of fact and collectable direct points.

Austrians have a pretty good argument when they found the avoidance of empirical observation when they cite that looking at what is and what all the inputs and causes were to create the condition can be quite difficult and lead to errors, even egregious ones. The good minded Austrian (the rare and collectible intelligent and caring Liberal....very rare types, I only know of 4, billybud and 3 guys I have worked with in the past...emphasis on work with.) And they will tell you that the winners, which there will always be, will inevitably leverage their lead in economy to to increase that very thing, their lead, and in many ways do so outside of the most pure sense and lead to social distortions and eventually brake the economy. And if their leveraging can be through instruments that can't be found in empirical studies..in the usable time period. (Such things as selling product at cost to capture more market and force competitors out of the market.)

Why I lean more to JMK application of policy is because this isn't 1937! And throttle and brake control of the economy does not have to be done in the manner that we have done it, with the Treasury and Central Bank/FED. Also upper economics requires the study of much of the math used in engineering which has many tools that enables a good Smith to find the causals in very ugly multi-variable system.

We should be on a sales tax structure. With computers, barcodes, and all of our technology...it is tax that should regulate the velocity of the greater economy and aggregates. You can effect the buyers and sellers and who is winning and buy how much or who is losing or gaining market share in the short and long term periods. This is a near perfect system for social valuing and economic vitality. What I deem JMK.1 Economics...Jones' Managed Keynesian Economics.
Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves.
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
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Re: Exactly why I don't like Politics

Postby WoVeU » Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:05 pm

JMK.1 example

Aggregate: Computing Sector
Market: Laptops
Product: Laptop (level 3A: >3GHz Processor, >2MB Ram, >16" Screen, ?$?? Resolution and Graphics Card Power)
Aggregate Suppliers (abbreviated): Dell, HP, IBM, Toshiba, TI, Intel, AMD, Samsung, Sony
Market Suppliers (abbreviated): Dell, HP, Toshiba
Vendors (abbrev): (Dept Stores) Walmart, Kmart, Target, Sears

You can float all taxes on a daily basis (heck by hour or minute if you wanted to), the key is the tool is notably faster than the economies velocity...plenty...well over the Nyquist sampling rate.
If the Aggregate is growing too fast and a rate that will leak to peaking in too short a period and thereby bring about a notable trough. We add to the standard sales tax as the product bar code is swiped...the bc is in the database and is associated with all of the above except for the vendor in this case. So lets say we add 1.25% to start to decelerate sales. Further, the buyer has chosen a very nice Laptop that has power and options 3 classes above standard...a bit of luxury being purchased...so another 1% is added, because the general economy (upper 30% incomes is growing at a healthy rate.) It is a product by HP, which is currently under the average market percentage for a producer in this segment so no additional tax is added to manage monopolistic influence. Lastly the register itself is owned by Walmart, which has a very high market share in the overall economy and an above average share in this Market. So 1.25% and 0.5% is added.

In this system everything can be under tax modulation. We can even include distributors it goes through or country of origin as further taxation. The beauty is it self declarative...at start-up we push lighter on the additional taxes and only on 1 or 2 at a time...in what would be literally days we have feedback as all of the sales are captured in a database. In months this system is highly refined. And we can control our excise type taxing here too; liquor, gas, cigarettes, etc. and can add some penalties for more luxurious foods and more unhealthy foods. Then of course, local, state, and federal as well. It can all be done at the market perfect...which I am absolutely certain is as close to perfect as you can get.

This has so many advantages, everyone pays, ones ability to pay can be reflected, and non-necessary purchasing can be reflected. The IRS would be gone, FED gone, and Treasury reduced. The rich can't hide behind a BS tax structure...wherein many money hangers make their money...less lawyers too. I could go on...
Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves.
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
R. Reagan

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Re: Exactly why I don't like Politics

Postby donovan » Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:50 pm

It's long...but here is the debate. Keynesian economics is the singular reason we are in the mess we are in, unequivocally.

http://www.reuters.com/subjects/keynes-hayek
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Re: Exactly why I don't like Politics

Postby donovan » Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:53 pm

There are some basics...Keynes believed government could spend it's way out of all economic problems. Hayek said let the free market determine what happens without government intervention. 60 years of Keynes, in my opinion, has not worked that well for the United States. I think there are 2 or 7 examples where government has not been able to tax and spend away economic problems. But that is just my observation.
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Re: Exactly why I don't like Politics

Postby WoVeU » Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:31 pm

Government spending is a great tool and the 600lb gorilla can motivate industry private dollars have a hard time doing. Federal dollars can serve as a ballasting mechanism just like, or better than interest rate manipulation, look at the two-edged sword of the Great Depression....infrastructure development and jobs. One of the problems is spending through debt, never good. Keynesian economics, I think to be spot on, in theory if taken under the goals he was ascribing the practices. But I don't like big government, if you apply it broadly Keynesian Modeling will have you growing government in the peaks and the through greed and fear motives along with the normal poor logic and practices of finding the causals. The next problem is the goal of full employment, I don't think that should be the goal of any economy. The goal should be a growing and stable economy....pushing for full employment causes forces to attempt to remove peaks and troughs, but predominantly troughs and when you attempt to take out oscillations in any natural system...you will brake it! Restating those 2 things can do wonders to create an applicative form of JMK economics. The problem is as long as you have a country and government, you have to have a government that is involved with economics. As long as you have voters, you are going to have people pandering to provide government assistance for problems in different areas...these are the real problems in any modern economy for the people.
Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves.
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
R. Reagan

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Re: Exactly why I don't like Politics

Postby Spence » Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:21 pm

I think the Keynesian system lends itself to socalism. I think it has failed miserably as a model for our country. Any system that discourages savings and encourages consumption, can't in the long run, survive. I believe that you must focus on the supply or production side to grow the economy and keep debt under control. I don't know if I am 100% behind a laissez-faire system, but I am for something very close. I think Keynesian policies are the primary reason we are having the problem that we are having now.
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

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Re: Exactly why I don't like Politics

Postby WoVeU » Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:10 pm

I get that and can't say you can't look at "Keynesian Economics" practices of the past and say it has led us to where we are. But I am pretty sure that any applied "Economic Theory" would have us pretty much where we are give or take a few years. Because economics is following governance and governance is following politics...politics will then claim their wanted practice is following that theory...though levels, whens, and wheres don't fully reflect it.

Lets then think Austrian and laissez-faire system (which I am close to all for) and a minimalist government and as little government intervention as possible. OK, what is that, just how many government orgs do we have? I would like the flat income tax (which would be any and all types of money and nothing on interest and dividend...because that has economic bias built in.) I don't think I would be so fond of having no monopolistic controls. Not having banking and investment controls would be interesting....and you can't have any and claim a free economy or laissez-faire. As these fly squarely in the face of "buyer beware" (the heart of l-z) and the alternative is to place controls on a sector that is likely the most deterministic of all in economic steering.

Well, I was prepared to start arguing "For" all of the schools in some sense, and then against...since this is the off season. But I just realized I don't care, because preaching on economics here doesn't make any sense. We have working and sensible folks here and the members have a good hold of what ideas are too restrictive and too loose to be of good long term practice. Above all we understand, nothing comes by way of wishing, magic, and fairy dust. The preaching needs to be done on The Comedy Channel, MTV, and the Jerry Springer show....you can find many an empty economic head at those places.

But this an interesting read that gets into some of the problem with all of these Economic Schools of Thought.
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/08/why-austrian-keynesian-monetarist-and.html
Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves.
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
R. Reagan


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