Wikileaks

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Eric
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Re: Wikileaks

Postby Eric » Tue Dec 14, 2010 4:50 pm

Yeah, there was a word or two for Peter. Ever hear of "put thy sword into the scabbard"? It comes from John, and I believe Matthew as well. And I'm not using Jesus for "political gain", I'm using what he said, in his own words (supposedly), to support my original argument that Christians calling for Assange's execution were being hypocritical and un-Christlike. You actually make a good secular case against Jesus since a) the Old Testament is barbaric and required the slaughter of children, bears eating children alive for making fun of Yahweh's prophet, and Moses' taking virgin girls to do you-know-what with them (and it also points toward the incoherency of the two Testaments) and b) I don't think Jesus came to preach common sense, so I agree his commandments are naive. The real life is supposed to be the afterworldly according to him, so I don't think Earthly security was ever a major talking point of his.

I think your retreat in this argument says a lot if eternal suffering is really in my foreseeable future. There's no real need to get defensive; after all, I am an agnostic but I'm willing to be convinced either way all the time. All ears over here :mrgreen:
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Re: Wikileaks

Postby Derek » Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:13 am

Eric wrote:Why wouldn't you use the word, "socialist" to describe it?

From Collins English Dictionary:
socialism (ˈsəʊʃəˌlɪzəm) [Click for IPA pronunciation guide]

— n
1. Compare capitalism an economic theory or system in which the means of production, distribution, and exchange are owned by the community collectively, usually through the state. It is characterized by production for use rather than profit, by equality of individual wealth, by the absence of competitive economic activity, and, usually, by government determination of investment, prices, and production levels


Because Socialism is taking from some and giving to those who don't work. War is done with entirely different motives.

Socialism depends on a politician taking from some for a guv-mint program and then turning around and buying votes with a law or program to benefit the dregs of society.
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Eric
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Re: Wikileaks

Postby Eric » Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:31 am

Derek wrote:Because Socialism is taking from some and giving to those who don't work.


No, that's welfare. Welfare is a type of socialism.
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Re: Wikileaks

Postby billybud » Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:42 pm

Chamberlain turned the other cheek.

Although I am sometimes still a little bitter about politicians and our losses in Viet Nam in what I feel was a "bad war", I feel that if the boys of the Greatest Generation hadn't gone up against Hitler and Hirohito, we'd have a far different world.

I have never been to Normandy. My dad went back on a tour in his old age. The pictures of the rows and rows of white crosses marking lives not lived speak to the awful sacrifices made. Sometimes an evil must be stopped and terrible prices paid. The trick is knowing when it is necessary.
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Re: Wikileaks

Postby Eric » Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:45 pm

billybud wrote:Chamberlain turned the other cheek.

Although I am sometimes still a little bitter about politicians and our losses in Viet Nam in what I feel was a "bad war", I feel that if the boys of the Greatest Generation hadn't gone up against Hitler and Hirohito, we'd have a far different world.

I have never been to Normandy. My dad went back on a tour in his old age. The pictures of the rows and rows of white crosses marking lives not lived speak to the awful sacrifices made. Sometimes an evil must be stopped and terrible prices paid. The trick is knowing when it is necessary.


I agree.
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Re: Wikileaks

Postby donovan » Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:04 pm

Not to be too picky....but Socialism is providing for everyone regardless of their input. It certainly has deteriorated to what Derek described. We have many areas where we believe there should be equal access without regard to input. Government services such as fire and police, parks, roads and a minimal standard of health care for those that can not provide it. I for one certainly do not want basic health care denied anyone regardless of how they got there. Is this a legitimate function of government. Sometimes. Certainly roads, parks, police and fire make sense. Denial of natural resources, such as land, to only the rich doesn't work, so we have state parks and beaches that we give to everyone. Should children be denied health services? I guess my point is, generalizations never address the issues. Friedman, Von Hayek and Mises figured it out. The Austrian economists. But then you would have to be a small "l" libertarian. Our founding Fathers never supported a National College Football playoff...and I challenge anyone that can find a quote where they did.
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Re: Wikileaks

Postby Derek » Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:07 pm

donovan wrote:Not to be too picky....but Socialism is providing for everyone regardless of their input. It certainly has deteriorated to what Derek described. We have many areas where we believe there should be equal access without regard to input. Government services such as fire and police, parks, roads and a minimal standard of health care for those that can not provide it. I for one certainly do not want basic health care denied anyone regardless of how they got there. Is this a legitimate function of government. Sometimes. Certainly roads, parks, police and fire make sense. Denial of natural resources, such as land, to only the rich doesn't work, so we have state parks and beaches that we give to everyone. Should children be denied health services? I guess my point is, generalizations never address the issues. Friedman, Von Hayek and Mises figured it out. The Austrian economists. But then you would have to be a small "l" libertarian. Our founding Fathers never supported a National College Football playoff...and I challenge anyone that can find a quote where they did.


They did not like the NCAA

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Re: Wikileaks

Postby Spence » Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:44 pm

donovan wrote:Not to be too picky....but Socialism is providing for everyone regardless of their input. It certainly has deteriorated to what Derek described. We have many areas where we believe there should be equal access without regard to input. Government services such as fire and police, parks, roads and a minimal standard of health care for those that can not provide it. I for one certainly do not want basic health care denied anyone regardless of how they got there. Is this a legitimate function of government. Sometimes. Certainly roads, parks, police and fire make sense. Denial of natural resources, such as land, to only the rich doesn't work, so we have state parks and beaches that we give to everyone. Should children be denied health services? I guess my point is, generalizations never address the issues. Friedman, Von Hayek and Mises figured it out. The Austrian economists. But then you would have to be a small "l" libertarian. Our founding Fathers never supported a National College Football playoff...and I challenge anyone that can find a quote where they did.



That is right. There is a social function of government. The problem is we push everything to the extreme. We throw the Democrats out and put more the Republicans in. The more extreme right Republicans take control and then we throw them out and the more extreme liberals in the Democratic party control their party. So instead of getting a mainstream common sense government we get a war between the far left and right and nothing gets done.

I know a guy who says that the only way to reform government is not to tell them what services need to be cut, but what services that I receive that I am willing to have cut. We as a people have to regain our own personal fiscal responsibility to have any chance of getting the government to clean up their house. They are a by product of our irresponsibility. (the collective we) The rich in this country are largly irresponsible, the poor are largely irresponsible and a large portioin of the middle class are irresponsible - so why would we expect the government we elected to be different.
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

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Re: Wikileaks

Postby WoVeU » Sat Dec 18, 2010 6:46 pm

billybud wrote:Chamberlain turned the other cheek.

Although I am sometimes still a little bitter about politicians and our losses in Viet Nam in what I feel was a "bad war", I feel that if the boys of the Greatest Generation hadn't gone up against Hitler and Hirohito, we'd have a far different world.

I have never been to Normandy. My dad went back on a tour in his old age. The pictures of the rows and rows of white crosses marking lives not lived speak to the awful sacrifices made. Sometimes an evil must be stopped and terrible prices paid. The trick is knowing when it is necessary.


Good words my friend!
Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves.
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
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Re: Wikileaks

Postby WoVeU » Sat Dec 18, 2010 6:51 pm

Spence I see your point exactly. But more and more the big Lib and Big Conserv bouncing isn't resulting in nothingess, in these more extreme times we are getting more extreme (trade-off) laws and programs through...dangerous as Hell! It went from gettingnothing done to going backwards in my opinion. The one combination that is impossible for certain is you can't run a Conservative tax program of little governemnt and the Liberal Social Programs of more government, we are now dumb enough to deploy this mix! Ridiculous!

But you are right, we need to say what we can give up. What sould we give up to live in a society? We can ask that too?

And I am tired of fear ruling the day. I just got back off the road. I found my knife that made it through the SA scrfeening and Charlotte screening twice (they reran my bag). A 2 bladed knife absolutely all metal, about 4 inch blades! I feel all safe! :D
Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves.
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
R. Reagan


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