Don't forget to vote Tuesday

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Eric
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Re: Don't forget to vote Tuesday

Postby Eric » Mon Nov 01, 2010 11:15 pm

Spence wrote:The middle class spends too much time worrying about the very rich and the very poor to realize the power they hold. They just need to start really caring and the extremists on both sides would be thrown to the sidelines.


It doesn't help when the system gives you two choices, each not opposing the core policies that make politics what it is today. Sure if people cared, they could overturn the system probably, but that takes a ton of time and effort and actively fending off these attacks. To some people it's just not worth it.

The problem is, "the people" in a Platonic and monolithic sense, support the very things that harm the middle class. Nobody knows anything about monetary theory and central banking. Nobody has any clue of how the Federal Reserve works. Worse yet, liberals (who too many conservatives forget have just as much say as they do and constitute a portion of "the folks") like the welfare system and conservatives like the warfare system because they think they are beheading jihadists when in reality the government is expanding its influence via hegemony.
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Re: Don't forget to vote Tuesday

Postby Spence » Mon Nov 01, 2010 11:17 pm

Eric wrote:
Spence wrote:The middle class spends too much time worrying about the very rich and the very poor to realize the power they hold. They just need to start really caring and the extremists on both sides would be thrown to the sidelines.


It doesn't help when the system gives you two choices, each not opposing the core policies that make politics what it is today. Sure if people cared, they could overturn the system probably, but that takes a ton of time and effort and actively fending off these attacks. To some people it's just not worth it.


That is the problem. Lack of getting out there. The tea party is trying. I give them credit for that.
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

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Re: Don't forget to vote Tuesday

Postby Brian Roastbeef » Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:22 am

Well the simple fact of the matter is that everything expands government. Conservatives expand government through a powerful foreign policy. Liberals expand government through intrusive social programs. Conservatives speak of security. Liberals speak of equality. Both are just reasons to impose the presence of government.

The tea party has some interesting ideas and are fighting the good fight, although I find it difficult to believe that even the most well-meaning politicians can roll back government control, but just slow the growth a little. My problem though with the Tea Party is that it is a bit too personality centric. I frequent many political sites, and entirely too many Tea Partiers see one particular politician as the one who will fix everything. To me, that is too dangerous, to trust one individual that much, as all are fallible and all will disappoint. Look where the cult of personality surrounding Obama has led this country. If anything it is better to elect a candidate who is generally well meaning but obviously flawed, so that a less trusting public have reason to hold his feet to the fire.

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Re: Don't forget to vote Tuesday

Postby Spence » Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:29 am

Brian Roastbeef wrote:Well the simple fact of the matter is that everything expands government. Conservatives expand government through a powerful foreign policy. Liberals expand government through intrusive social programs. Conservatives speak of security. Liberals speak of equality. Both are just reasons to impose the presence of government.

The tea party has some interesting ideas and are fighting the good fight, although I find it difficult to believe that even the most well-meaning politicians can roll back government control, but just slow the growth a little. My problem though with the Tea Party is that it is a bit too personality centric. I frequent many political sites, and entirely too many Tea Partiers see one particular politician as the one who will fix everything. To me, that is too dangerous, to trust one individual that much, as all are fallible and all will disappoint. Look where the cult of personality surrounding Obama has led this country. If anything it is better to elect a candidate who is generally well meaning but obviously flawed, so that a less trusting public have reason to hold his feet to the fire.


I agree. No politician is going to change anything, only people can change things.

I don't agree that we can't stop the expansion of the federal government. If the people work to limit the scope of what the federal government can do and turn power back to the states it can happen. The states working individually, trying different things provide fifty working models. Some will fail and some will succeed. The ones who succeed can provide the road map for the others. We don't have to send the whole nation down a one way road.
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

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Re: Don't forget to vote Tuesday

Postby WoVeU » Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:10 am

Eric wrote:Yep, the pitfalls of democratic elections. Everybody wants to use your money to pay for what they want :lol:

The rich/businesses pay off politicians to enact barriers to entry and the poor want welfare handouts. And people wonder why the middle class can't expand or even maintain itself.


Economic barriers haven't been the real motive of fat-cats for a while. They have moved on to debarring, look at big pharmaceutical and alcohol, allowance is a big thing now. Requirement is next...insurances, licensing, inspection, product safety, compliance...they love these! Hey, there is no better demand than a requirement. And then there is the government contracts, spending on defense is big business...but there is no bigger business than energy! Energy really, and finally, has a push from the left and right. (And finally again, America is leading the world in producing a few of these technologies, and among these leaders in some others. But the bigger payoffs won't come until the businesses really grow.)

Many things are ridiculous (at least in level) in all of these, but with these agendas being forwarded they have to create many jobs. It just cannot happen without creating jobs...handing out money doesn't create anything, handing out to the level we currently do is massively destructive (I have watched it change what used to be hard working people, they now do not). Some people truly need the helping hand and these do add some real civility to society, but the whole system is on steroids and PCP and are way over the top. College is the other big business, they have made soft and semi-rigid requirements all over the place, and we push loads of people through college at a very large cost...but curricula has escaped any intelligent scrutiny, we just pump them through, many come out nearly as unskilled as they were at entry, but their pomp has underwent incredible gain. But this too creates jobs but it is minimized because the derivatives are not as far reaching, and the whole thing is funded by personal and institutionalized debt.

-If people knew how requirements hit them in the pocket they would crap and fall back in it. The new house you pay for is likely in the area of 60% applied monies...the rest is from being nickeled and dimed in every aspect by red-tape and requirement.
-My kids have 2 sets of school books and yet half of what they do at home (very little) is not text book based. But you have to have books...right? (BTW, $160, how much does a novel cost you?)

I could go on and on but I am going to attempt to preserve a good mood today!
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Re: Don't forget to vote Tuesday

Postby Spence » Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:29 am

Still, don't forget to vote today. 8)
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

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Re: Don't forget to vote Tuesday

Postby donovan » Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:04 am

Spence wrote:Still, don't forget to vote today. 8)


And...if you are from Chicago...just once.
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Re: Don't forget to vote Tuesday

Postby Spence » Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:07 am

I believe the motto in Chicago is to vote early and often. :lol:
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

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Re: Don't forget to vote Tuesday

Postby Brian Roastbeef » Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:09 pm

Spence wrote:
Brian Roastbeef wrote:Well the simple fact of the matter is that everything expands government. Conservatives expand government through a powerful foreign policy. Liberals expand government through intrusive social programs. Conservatives speak of security. Liberals speak of equality. Both are just reasons to impose the presence of government.

The tea party has some interesting ideas and are fighting the good fight, although I find it difficult to believe that even the most well-meaning politicians can roll back government control, but just slow the growth a little. My problem though with the Tea Party is that it is a bit too personality centric. I frequent many political sites, and entirely too many Tea Partiers see one particular politician as the one who will fix everything. To me, that is too dangerous, to trust one individual that much, as all are fallible and all will disappoint. Look where the cult of personality surrounding Obama has led this country. If anything it is better to elect a candidate who is generally well meaning but obviously flawed, so that a less trusting public have reason to hold his feet to the fire.


I agree. No politician is going to change anything, only people can change things.

I don't agree that we can't stop the expansion of the federal government. If the people work to limit the scope of what the federal government can do and turn power back to the states it can happen. The states working individually, trying different things provide fifty working models. Some will fail and some will succeed. The ones who succeed can provide the road map for the others. We don't have to send the whole nation down a one way road.


Well, if we do reverse the expansion of government, that will be something that hasn't been done historically, without a complete change in government (i.e. a revolution). Even Reagan, who had as much of a small government philosophy as any President we've had since WWII was unable to enact the rollbacks in government control, couldn't eliminate the Dept. of Education, lowered taxes, but increased spending, interventionist foreign policy (though it ended the Cold War.) In the end, he could only slow the damage, not reverse it. Maybe he could have done it with a conservative Congress...

Anyway, until I actually see government give up power that it has taken from the people, I'm not as optimistic that it is possible. Still we should try for it with every opportunity that we have. I'll be heading out in about an hour to cast my vote. Doubtful that Townsend, DioGuardi, and Paladino will stand a remote chance. Ann Marie Buerkle may have just that, a remote chance. They'll all have my vote, either way.

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Re: Don't forget to vote Tuesday

Postby Dossenator » Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:10 pm

I just voted....no id required. They asked me my name and address. I then had to write my name and address down. I guess id's are not a good way to go in CA because they openly issue driver licenses to illegals.
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Re: Don't forget to vote Tuesday

Postby Derek » Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:48 pm

Vote Early...Vote often.
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Re: Don't forget to vote Tuesday

Postby Eric » Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:58 pm

WoVeU wrote:
Eric wrote:Yep, the pitfalls of democratic elections. Everybody wants to use your money to pay for what they want :lol:

The rich/businesses pay off politicians to enact barriers to entry and the poor want welfare handouts. And people wonder why the middle class can't expand or even maintain itself.


Economic barriers haven't been the real motive of fat-cats for a while. They have moved on to debarring, look at big pharmaceutical and alcohol, allowance is a big thing now. Requirement is next...insurances, licensing, inspection, product safety, compliance...they love these! Hey, there is no better demand than a requirement. And then there is the government contracts, spending on defense is big business...but there is no bigger business than energy! Energy really, and finally, has a push from the left and right. (And finally again, America is leading the world in producing a few of these technologies, and among these leaders in some others. But the bigger payoffs won't come until the businesses really grow.)


Exactly. That's what I mean by barriers to entry. It's not all about economics, but they can use the State to license and "regulate" sectors that make it difficult for competition to arise and meet demand at a lower and more efficient price.
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Re: Don't forget to vote Tuesday

Postby Spence » Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:08 pm

Dossenator wrote:I just voted....no id required. They asked me my name and address. I then had to write my name and address down. I guess id's are not a good way to go in CA because they openly issue driver licenses to illegals.


That is amazing to me. Not only did I have to give them my ID, they asked me to take it out of the protective case so they could check it. They also wrote my name and address down - not me. Then they had me sign my name. That is how it is done every time. No wonder California is such a mess. :roll:
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

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Re: Don't forget to vote Tuesday

Postby Dossenator » Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:39 pm

Spence wrote:
Dossenator wrote:I just voted....no id required. They asked me my name and address. I then had to write my name and address down. I guess id's are not a good way to go in CA because they openly issue driver licenses to illegals.


That is amazing to me. Not only did I have to give them my ID, they asked me to take it out of the protective case so they could check it. They also wrote my name and address down - not me. Then they had me sign my name. That is how it is done every time. No wonder California is such a mess. :roll:


That's how it was done in Arkansas when I lived there.

Today, I had my id out and they said they did not need to see it. They asked me my name and two girls opened up books to my name....book one had a blank space for me to write my name and address. The other book had my name and address all ready typed out, and they had me verify that was my address.
"A team with something to play for is dangerous, but a team with someone to play for is unstoppable..." Arkansas OL Brey Cook quote following the death of teammate Garrett Uekman (Nov. 2011).


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