Football and Prayer

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donovan
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Football and Prayer

Postby donovan » Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:47 pm

Some stories tell you more about a community than you wished they would....I am assuming the city council will tell this dad to go to Hell....would that be a prayer?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/09/29/florida-parent-protests-prayer-ritual-football-games/
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Re: Football and Prayer

Postby Derek » Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:12 pm

What part of voluntary does this guy not understand? No one is forcing anything on anybody.
They’re either going to run the ball here or their going to pass it.

The fewer rules a coach has, the fewer rules there are for players to break.

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Re: Football and Prayer

Postby Eric » Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:15 pm

If it's voluntary, then I don't see what the problem is. If there's a ridicule problem, the kid should either take it up with his teammates or not play for that team or in that league. I wouldn't want to play with a bunch of jerks like that anyway (and it sounds harsh, but I'm talking about temporary jerks as pee-wee kids have time to grow up :lol: ).

What was the point of this quote?:

"We are Americans," she continued. "My husband and son have both served in the military and we stand for our beliefs."


And? :?
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Re: Football and Prayer

Postby Spence » Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:28 pm

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Seems to me they aren't stopping him from doing anything. He is violating their first amendment rights. The state should never force a religion on anyone - even though it isn't possible to force faith on anyone. If they don't believe no one - except maybe God :wink: - can make him believe. While he may have a disdain for faith based customs, they aren't forcing them on him. He is free to twiddle his thumbs, read a book, text his wife or what ever while others are praying, twiddling their thumbs, or texting their friends.

It seems to me the very people who are using the first amendment to take God out of everything are the oppressors, not the people praying. I don't have a problem with non-believers. I just don't want them to try and stand in my way when I choose to exercise my first amendment rights and serve my God.
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Re: Football and Prayer

Postby Derek » Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:33 pm

It goes back to the hostility stuff I said a few days ago. They are very angry people.
They’re either going to run the ball here or their going to pass it.

The fewer rules a coach has, the fewer rules there are for players to break.

- John Madden

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Re: Football and Prayer

Postby Eric » Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:35 pm

Spence wrote:"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."



The problem is the first clause of that sentence and the second clause of that sentence come into conflict quite often. When the state allows religion to be practiced on public grounds, it can potentially be inferred that the State is "respecting an establishment of religion", or showing favoritism in a religious matter. Take the Merry Christmas sign in the Washington state square; if you show Christmas and deny Festivus, you are respecting one form of religion in the public square over another and that is not supposed to happen.

And Derek, most of the hostility goes towards the perceived persecution and public belittling that they suffer from. "Your'e not American", "you have no morality", etc. Atheist discrimination is much more widespread than people assume.
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Re: Football and Prayer

Postby Spence » Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:46 pm

But you aren't as long as you allow any sort of religion or secular display . That can open a can of worms in and of itself so they generally do not allow it. But if me and a group of people are walking through a public park and decide to stop an pray, there is nothing illegal about it. Now if the state had me stand on the statehouse lawn and preach a certain religion and wouldn't allow any other speech or display, then that is a problem.

No where in the constitution does it say people can not pray. Only that anyone should be able to believe what they want to believe without the state interfering. Any prohibition on religion is a violation of free speech.
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Re: Football and Prayer

Postby Eric » Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:49 pm

Spence wrote:But you aren't as long as you allow any sort of religion or secular display . That can open a can of worms in and of itself so they generally do not allow it. But if me and a group of people are walking through a public park and decide to stop an pray, there is nothing illegal about it. Now if the state had me stand on the statehouse lawn and preach a certain religion and wouldn't allow any other speech or display, then that is a problem.

No where in the constitution does it say people can not pray. Only that anyone should be able to believe what they want to believe without the state interfering. Any prohibition on religion is a violation of free speech.


I agree, what this parent is doing is dumb (unless we don't know all the details). If it's a bullying problem, then bullying is the problem and not prayer. It's the gimme-gimmie-gimmie environment that government incubates.

At any rate, this is one incident. I was just talking about the First Amendment in a greater context.
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Re: Football and Prayer

Postby Spence » Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:35 am

You never really know all the details, because news very rarely gets things right, but if these people want to pray, they have the right. They can walk into the White House and pray if they like - the White House isn't allowed to organize it - but it also can't stop them. They can pray, whenever and where ever they choose. They also have the right not to pray.

What probably causes the problem is that this guy's kid probably wants to pray with them, because that is what the group is doing, and he finds that to be a sort of indoctrination. While I can understand his point, it is up to him to teach his children what he thinks is right. If he did it the right way, he should be able to do it and stil be tolerant of the others beliefs.
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Re: Football and Prayer

Postby donovan » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:23 pm

This is the part I don't get. If people are trying to bring some degree of civility into this world, why are we objecting. If a person finds it personally offensive, then quietly step aside. LIke most on the board, I have some fairly strong opinions on these subjects, but I am certainly encouraging of people doing what they feel furthers a society of perspective and respect. Everyone is allowed to worship according to the dictates of their own conscience, as long as they do not interfere with others doing the same. (I don't think he will be enrolling his kid at BYU.)
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Re: Football and Prayer

Postby Spence » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:43 pm

donovan wrote:This is the part I don't get. If people are trying to bring some degree of civility into this world, why are we objecting. If a person finds it personally offensive, then quietly step aside. LIke most on the board, I have some fairly strong opinions on these subjects, but I am certainly encouraging of people doing what they feel furthers a society of perspective and respect. Everyone is allowed to worship according to the dictates of their own conscience, as long as they do not interfere with others doing the same. (I don't think he will be enrolling his kid at BYU.)


I think you are exactly right. Unless someone was trying to force this on him - which this didn't mention anywhere - then why not let others have their beliefs. They weren't causing him damage. I think everyone has a strong sense of what they believe. As long as you don't hurt anyone in the process then I don't see the hard.

Paganism is a religion that is alive and well in this country. While I do not believe what they believe, I have no problem with them practicing as ling as they aren't hurting anyone.

There is nothing wrong with the muslim religion, although I don't believe in that either. There is something wrong with the people who take those beliefs to extreme, same goes for any religion. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be tolerant of the peaceful majority who practice their religion and live their lives peacefully with the rest of the world.
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

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Re: Football and Prayer

Postby WoVeU » Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:43 am

Here is what sickens me in all of this, people put on their "reading" glasses and just don't step back at all.

They want to wave some constitutional banner and banter on "their" fight for securing a freedom or freedoms. Now, this tells you how upside down the world has gotten. This is Exactly the opposite. Freedom of any form, in any society, is leveraged on tolerance. It doesn't get any more intolerant than this. I'm getting really ticked that many of these people get to wear a Liberation banner when it is 180 degrees out of phase with what they are doing. This is a mockery of the finalization of the American Promise finally delivered on in the 60's and 70's . If they say it is a continuation, then they show it was never about freedom, it was just rebelling, and not an act of love by any means, but hate. Fighting those perceived to be in the "establishment". And for this to still continue they are "straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel!" I wish Martin Luther King was still here, I wish JFK could see this, would Rosa be aboard this bus. "Mr. Lincoln I wish you were here!"

All these people need their alpha-fifty-five kicked! We have become so patsy, it is ridiculous, everybody is a delicate flower. Common courage is being eradicated, and without courage...freedom is impossible. Freedom is built upon tolerance...and tolerance is founded upon courage! A man has to have courage to allow and give respect to those around him who are different.

I say it again, everyone is victim...biggest whiner wins. Tests on logic, truth, and right are no longer applied.
Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves.
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Re: Football and Prayer

Postby Derek » Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:46 pm

WoVeU wrote:All these people need their alpha-fifty-five kicked! We have become so patsy, it is ridiculous, everybody is a delicate flower. Common courage is being eradicated, and without courage...freedom is impossible. Freedom is built upon tolerance...and tolerance is founded upon courage! A man has to have courage to allow and give respect to those around him who are different.


This is probably the best phrased statement of what's wrong with society these days, that I've heard in a while.
They’re either going to run the ball here or their going to pass it.

The fewer rules a coach has, the fewer rules there are for players to break.

- John Madden

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Re: Football and Prayer

Postby WoVeU » Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:19 pm

Derek wrote:
WoVeU wrote:All these people need their alpha-fifty-five kicked! We have become so patsy, it is ridiculous, everybody is a delicate flower. Common courage is being eradicated, and without courage...freedom is impossible. Freedom is built upon tolerance...and tolerance is founded upon courage! A man has to have courage to allow and give respect to those around him who are different.


This is probably the best phrased statement of what's wrong with society these days, that I've heard in a while.


Thank you sir.
I'd settle for wide dissemination of the "alpha-fifty-five kicking!"

Life comes with one certain teacher, "pain"! She ain't never been wrong (and yes, I am quite sure she is female.) Nothing else has the ability to teach by itself. We talk of blood, sweat, and tears for a reason. These are at minimum: precursors, remnants, or dampened versions of PAIN. A full belly, a good feeling in your soul, warmth, comfort, et al., all of these too can teach but the teaching lacks depth without the good reference of pain. And all of those are powerful, much like love. But as I have spoken of love, as ll powerful and conquering as it is, is hampered by the requirement of 2 or more parties. Hate (much like violence and pain) needs no partner. Love also benefits greatly from long-suffering and aging. Pain doesn't have such a need, it works right out of the box! (Pain - the original plug'n play.)
Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves.
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
R. Reagan


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