I'm 63 and tired, by Robert A. Hall

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Re: I'm 63 and tired, by Robert A. Hall

Postby billybud » Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:28 am

Eric...I don't state the case for government. I do give some counterpoint so that we all won't be wolves howling at the same moon.

Nobody likes government...but nobody wants to live without one. Southerners, especially, don't like government and have a genetic predisposition to mistrust Washington and federal government. We fought the interstate highways because they bypassed our towns, we fought integration because it was forced by the government, we fought forced busing because we believed in neighborhood schools, heck, we'll pick a fight with the NCAA because we don't think they should dictate team names.

But clearly, the interstates were the right thing to do, integration was right....every now and then, in maintaining the common public interest over the interest of some citizens, government gets it right.

The primary problem those of on the "have" side of the equation have with government is the government role in the redistribution of wealth. It is our wealth being distributed.

We all want a citizenry that is healthy, fed, educated..and protected. We just wish that it did not have to come out of our checking accounts...
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Re: I'm 63 and tired, by Robert A. Hall

Postby Spence » Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:59 am

I don't even mind it coming out of my account, I just want the people who get it to try. I don't think most people would mind helping people who help themselves - and I know there are lots who try - many more do not. President Obama's favorite jobs line is "I want every one who wants a job to have a job". How about wanting everyone who is able to work to have a job?

We always take things to their extreme in this country. Common sense rarely enters the equation. It is just time for some common sense mixed with some basic humanity. The government has a place, it just isn't up to them dictate how people live their lives.
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Re: I'm 63 and tired, by Robert A. Hall

Postby donovan » Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:47 am

I see the basic issue is we no longer make decisions based on our basic philosophy of government. The founding fathers debated this very issue and came up with what was an acceptable compromise that, though it is not the oldest continual government in the world, it has lasted much longer than most.

As technology has been developed exponentially, our moral values have become obscure at the same rate of speed. Right and wrong that was agreed upon by all, is now questioned with every issue.

There are collective societal issues, defense, roads, protection of civil and constitutional rights; the ones outlined in the Constitution. But today when issues come up, we look for some governmental body to solve them. We want every state to be a clone of another. That may be to some, a worthy goal, but certainly was not the original vision. As a matter of what I think is fact, the opposite was true. States were to be different, the body politic could decide and figure out how to handle it. Today we seek to have all states the same, which is by no means the same as being equal.

So the only entity that can make the states the same, is the Federal Government. Now we start out with them being the solution to problems. We, by plebiscite, elected a man that wants to direct every aspect of our lives. That costs money; a lot of money. Seems to me, we got what we wanted. If that is not what the majority wants, then we need to vote differently and be prepared to address the issue of our communities according to community standards.

We make decisions where we live based on a lot of issue. When the kids were young there were places I would not have lived because I felt the education system was lacking. There are places I do not want to live because of the weather. There are places I do not want to live because their football teams belong to the SEC. These are all personal choices, but with it comes personally responsibility and not the idea that some third party is going to make it happen.

I do not like all of the poverty in the United States. I do not like many things, but there are so many more I do like. I can do things to help both sides of the coin. What I can not do is think the Federal Government is going to resolve all of these issues and then complain that I have to pay the bill.
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Re: I'm 63 and tired, by Robert A. Hall

Postby Eric » Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:55 am

I don't really state the case for greed either. I don't necessarily believe it's good in and of itself. In my opinion, I would rather have a voluntary system where everybody feels the need to help others. However, I think greed/capitalism usually leads to the most practical results at this time in human history. Greed moves the market in a positive direction while with the help of the government, greed moves the market in a negative direction. That was the point I was trying to make.

Basically, what government says, is that at some point, it becomes okay to extort money for the greater good. I think people should accept this notion. A private police force, for instance, probably would be more "efficient" in its proper context. But efficiency on the marketplace only means that it is better for its customers. Sure there may be people who want to risk not paying for a police force, but poor or homeless people are generally believed to deserve police protection. It becomes a matter of efficiency versus coverage; I think some things the State does okay, but those things can be done without the coercion and force involved. I'd agree with that, so while I do in some ways sympathize with people like Murray Rothbard, I'm not quite willing to take his "leap of faith" :lol:

Still in the Rothbard school, I dislike how the government goes about dictating its will on the marketplace. I don't think anything they do besides police, defense, and courts could be done sans the free market. Actually, courts could but again, it's not covered for everybody. And I would like a voucher system for private education schools and health, so I would support government pay outs in those areas, not government take overs. Government is never subject to market disciplines, so they interfere with the process and mess up a lot.

It's unrealistic at this point in time and I realize that. I think the main reason is that the government in general has swelled up so big that people are unwilling to possibly see it decreased or that they have become so dependent on the government. If you go to a private Catholic school, what are the odds that you come away sympathetic to Catholicism? If you attend a public school run by the government though, you never hear about a lot of things. I never learned about how the issue with the Robber Barons and the government really happened. I never learned about Lysander Spooner's challenge to the Post Office. It's always presented, as was our previous discussion, that the Confederacy was wrong to secede (and in turn make people mock Texas for doing the very thing which the Founders proposed). Or how Herbert Hoover's capitalism brought about the Great Depression. The list goes on and on.

I don't think it's a "conspiracy", I just think it comes natural as a form of bias. When it comes down to it, the government is made up of individuals. As Thoreau said, I think instead of individual agents, they become cogs in a machine and don't take the time to consider any decisions upon themselves.
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Re: I'm 63 and tired, by Robert A. Hall

Postby billybud » Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:41 pm

If you go to a private Catholic school, what are the odds that you come away sympathetic to Catholicism?


LOL...slimmer than you might think.

And I went to parochial schools...although I am not a catholic, I know many of my schoolmates grew up disenchanted.
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Re: I'm 63 and tired, by Robert A. Hall

Postby Eric » Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:29 pm

billybud wrote:
If you go to a private Catholic school, what are the odds that you come away sympathetic to Catholicism?


LOL...slimmer than you might think.

And I went to parochial schools...although I am not a catholic, I know many of my schoolmates grew up disenchanted.


Very true :lol:
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Re: I'm 63 and tired, by Robert A. Hall

Postby Eric » Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:33 pm

billybud wrote:
If you go to a private Catholic school, what are the odds that you come away sympathetic to Catholicism?


LOL...slimmer than you might think.

And I went to parochial schools...although I am not a catholic, I know many of my schoolmates grew up disenchanted.


The United Kingdom has a larger problem with this than I think America does. Many of the people who attend private religious schools don't even focus on the religious aspect, they go for the prestige, education in other areas, or they're there to play sports at a high level.
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Re: I'm 63 and tired, by Robert A. Hall

Postby Spence » Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:40 pm

Donovan wrote:What I can not do is think the Federal Government is going to resolve all of these issues and then complain that I have to pay the bill.


That sums up so many of the problems with "we the people". We can't just complain we must fight to achieve our goals. (and by fight I am not advocating blowing stuff up or any other form of killing people or destroying property - unlike several of our president's friends and mentors) :wink: I mean we must put our money where our mouths are and elect people we believe will fight for us. If they turn out not to do things in the our countries best interest we need to vote them out and find someone else. We can have change if we all (meaning the country) all clean up our little corner of the world. Push for state's rights and push to cut off the federal governments control. ( the way to do that is to insist that our reps refuse most forms of federal funding. That is how we are controlled, because according to the constitution the federal government can't control the states unless the states let it happen.)
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

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Re: I'm 63 and tired, by Robert A. Hall

Postby billybud » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:03 am

The constitution is what the Supremes say it is...and the role of feds vs states has been set on many, many issues...
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Re: I'm 63 and tired, by Robert A. Hall

Postby WoVeU » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:16 am

billybud wrote:
If you go to a private Catholic school, what are the odds that you come away sympathetic to Catholicism?


LOL...slimmer than you might think.

And I went to parochial schools...although I am not a catholic, I know many of my schoolmates grew up disenchanted.


Yeah, ditto, I found that quite alarming as a young person. I think I came across more people who were disenchanted than not (perhaps a good deal more). Some didn't practice any religion, the others were mostly given to private study and discussion in groups. Hard to find anything that reports a sad state of affairs more than this, well, there is the current problem under the media's focus.
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Re: I'm 63 and tired, by Robert A. Hall

Postby Spence » Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:52 am

billybud wrote:The constitution is what the Supremes say it is...and the role of feds vs states has been set on many, many issues...



Yes, but the states let the feds over reach by taking money with strings attached. That lets the feds dictate to the states and impose their will. If the states don't take the money, they aren't beholden.
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Re: I'm 63 and tired, by Robert A. Hall

Postby Eric » Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:29 am

The Supremacy Clause is meant for things like the 1st and 2nd Amendment. Read the 10th Amendment, something most people haven't looked at.
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Re: I'm 63 and tired, by Robert A. Hall

Postby Derek » Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:26 pm

billybud wrote:
Then I add my percent of profit to that cost and you pay more - everytime. Or I go out of business and then there are less people competing in the market.


Many economists favor more taxation on the inelastic demand business...and less on those businesses with elastic demand. There is less of the cause/effect that you brought up when demand is inelastic.

The problem is that we do not develop taxation policy strictly from the best economic sense. Taxation policy is derived by the politics of running or maintaining office, the politics of campaign contributions and corporate lobbyists, and the politics of the extreme ends of the political spectrum who organize better and are more strident than the middle.


Many economist also favor doing away with the income tax altogether and doing a flat or sales tax, no deductions and no exceptions.

Cut all of the political wrangling out...I mean...you can't very well demonize another group of people (the rich) when everyone pays the same thing.

That kinda throws a kink into their goal of using the tax code for political benefit. Don't think it's working??? We are on here talking about how evil bid-ness is for not paying enough in taxes. Mission accomplished.
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Re: I'm 63 and tired, by Robert A. Hall

Postby donovan » Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:29 am

There are many tax models out there that would work. What they do not include is the deceit and the ability of politicians and bureaucrats to manipulate and confuse.

I vacillate back and forth between the Income Tax and a National Sales Tax. I do favor a unitary taxation system. This at least gives the taxpayer an idea of the amount of taxes paid. One reason I lean toward the sales tax is the percentage is out in the open. So if it 32%, then at least we know that. Exemption of certain items, food, healthcare, etc, allows people with less income that spend a higher percentage on necessities, the Lorenz curve, to have some relief and it applies to all people equally regardless of income.
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Re: I'm 63 and tired, by Robert A. Hall

Postby Spence » Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:01 pm

donovan wrote:There are many tax models out there that would work. What they do not include is the deceit and the ability of politicians and bureaucrats to manipulate and confuse.

I vacillate back and forth between the Income Tax and a National Sales Tax. I do favor a unitary taxation system. This at least gives the taxpayer an idea of the amount of taxes paid. One reason I lean toward the sales tax is the percentage is out in the open. So if it 32%, then at least we know that. Exemption of certain items, food, healthcare, etc, allows people with less income that spend a higher percentage on necessities, the Lorenz curve, to have some relief and it applies to all people equally regardless of income.


I like the idea of a national sales tax - for the reason you mention. I think that you would have to exempt some things to keep a sales tax from being prohibitive to poorer people or it could not work. Beyond that, though, I think that until we get as many people as we can back among the working class and taking care of themselves, we will be in trouble. I understand there are those that can not be self sufficient for physical or mental reasons and I think we should have that responsibility as a society, but lots of people are able and not willing.
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