Grumblings Grow Louder

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donovan
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Re: Grumblings Grow Louder

Postby donovan » Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:41 am

It is good we remember, learn and try to not have the same issues of the past. The civil war is not the only travesty, albeit the largest, atrocity of our people against our people. Was there other ways to handle the Indian Wars, Mormon extermination by Gov Boggs of Missouri, Manifest destiny's justification for the war with Mexico. We do not seem to learn.

Lincoln was not the enemy of this country, there is a reason he may have well been the greatest American President....we just didn't listen to him. Here is one example.

Lincoln's Three Proposed Constitutional Amendments of 1862
1. Federal compensation provided for states agreeing to abolish slavery by January 1, 1900.
2. Frees slaves who "enjoyed actual freedom by the chances of war" before "the end of the rebellion."
3. Congress authorized to provide for colonization outside of the United States of free blacks by their own consent.
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Re: Grumblings Grow Louder

Postby billybud » Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:00 am

One thing I will say about the differences between the north and south. The north quit fighting the war in the 1860's and some from the south never have to this day.


Although I was responding to this, Spence, I am not sure what you meant. If you meant that the Civil War was a defining event for the South, much more so than the north. I agree. If you mean that some folks display the bars and stars as a symbol...I disagree that they are "fighting the war". The confederate battle flag was honored as the symbol of the confederate south, a symbol that whole generations of southern men died under. It became a symbol of pride in the southern culture and flew from many of our courthouses. I grew up in the 50's with that flag proudly waved across the south as a symbol of Dixie. Midwesterners have no unifying culture, no unifying symbol for their region. I can see that they do not understand.

Appropriated by racists, unfortunately the battle flag has become a symbol of racist thought to many. And, with the great southern migrations of the last 40 years, Dixie is no longer Dixie. It is Pittsburgh South.
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Re: Grumblings Grow Louder

Postby billybud » Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:01 am

But what can I say....In Wisconsin, folks parade around with a wedge of cheese on their heads....different strokes.
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Re: Grumblings Grow Louder

Postby Eric » Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:28 pm

billybud wrote:But what can I say....In Wisconsin, folks parade around with a wedge of cheese on their heads....different strokes.


Well, you know, cheese never enslaved nor endorsed slavery of a group of people :D

I don't have a lot of hard feelings toward the Confederate Flag. If you applied the same standard, you could say our old flag stood for the genocide of Native Americans. So where do you draw the line? I think it depends on the motivation of the person. I think a good adjective for the South is "jaded".

And you know, this argument of "you don't have the right perspective" can cut both ways. I understand your father came from Wisconsin, but growing up in the South could lead you to have a more sympathetic view of the South. Just as our point of view may be biased.
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Re: Grumblings Grow Louder

Postby billybud » Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:30 pm

Eric, I spent a few years in Neenah, Wis on the family dairy farm...Grade school years at St. Margaret Mary's in Neenah. I, though, am a spiritual child of my mother's side, you are right. I loved the old men of Alabama, the friendly culture, the food, and my maternal grandfather who was a natural born rifleman and a master in the woods. My mother's soft Alabama accent crooning WWII songs to me as a child far overrode the nasal flat Wisconsin twang of my father.

I felt at home walking among the ghosts of the rickety old pre civil war homeplace in Camden, I felt a connection to the grave of my great grandparent. My gg grandmother was widowed in the war, impoverished, and raised 6 children with the help of her family. I am a southerner by birth and by choice, so I guess you may have a point.

That's not to say that I also don't treasure the memory of the 1862 farmhouse in Neenah, and my early years roaming the pastures and the woods of eastern Wisconsin....but I could hear the song of the south and Wisconsin didn't sing to me. Through all of these decades, no matter my roamings, I still hear that song. I still spend weekends and summers riding the back roads of the south on my Harley. I follow the murmuring melody heard in my heart and it has brought me joy over the years. My wife, who rides with me, loves the adventure and says that it is a blessing that such simple things bring me so much joy.

This summer, we are riding The Crooked Road...where Country Music began in 1927...through small towns like Floyd and Galax and Abingdon, Virginia and the Carter Family Fold about 70 miles down the road. We plan to listen to the music of the past and present, meander where the muse takes us, and eat well.

I didn't mean to let so much go that is so personal, but it is who I am. A southern boy.
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Re: Grumblings Grow Louder

Postby Eric » Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:36 pm

And yet you criticize Spence for not having a proper perspective on the matter? Are you without emotional bias?
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Re: Grumblings Grow Louder

Postby Spence » Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:47 pm

billybud wrote:
One thing I will say about the differences between the north and south. The north quit fighting the war in the 1860's and some from the south never have to this day.


Although I was responding to this, Spence, I am not sure what you meant. If you meant that the Civil War was a defining event for the South, much more so than the north. I agree. If you mean that some folks display the bars and stars as a symbol...I disagree that they are "fighting the war". The confederate battle flag was honored as the symbol of the confederate south, a symbol that whole generations of southern men died under. It became a symbol of pride in the southern culture and flew from many of our courthouses. I grew up in the 50's with that flag proudly waved across the south as a symbol of Dixie. Midwesterners have no unifying culture, no unifying symbol for their region. I can see that they do not understand.

Appropriated by racists, unfortunately the battle flag has become a symbol of racist thought to many. And, with the great southern migrations of the last 40 years, Dixie is no longer Dixie. It is Pittsburgh South.



I have no problem with the confederate flag as a rememberence. Midwesterners do not have a unifying culture, we tend to be individuals. :wink:
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

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Re: Grumblings Grow Louder

Postby Spence » Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:37 pm

billybud wrote:Spence...you write from the perspective of an midwesterner, without any feel for the south at all. I have been exposed to both cultures since I am the unnatural prodigy of an Alabama girl and a Wisconsin boy. One GG grandfather rode with the Wisconsin 3rd Cavalry and another GG grandfather with the Johnny Rebs.

The perspective that you are missing is that of a survivor of an occupied country. The north was spared the concept of "total war". A war against civilians that had not been forgotten by my grandparents generation. At a time when a family depended on their crops and farm animals to survive, it was the policy of the union to burn and destroy. War widows and their children were starving because their crops and livestock were destroyed. The invading union armies burned homesteads, cities, pillaged and, yes, raped. That great southern shame is never spoken about by the victors, but the scars were carried by many families. My grandfather heard directly from his elders and I, of course, listened to the stories of my grandfather.

After the war, union armies occupied the south and yankee scalawags and carpetbaggers of every verminous stripe stole what wasn't nailed down and much of what was.

Why should we forget the sacrifices made by our ancestors? The south was decimated. Our men suffered casualty rates that make WWII losses look mild. Thirty percent of all southern males aged 18-40 died. Whole family lines ended. But a southern culture endured. Endured reconstruction, endured poverty. The great fight, over time, became a romanticized, sepia toned memory rather than the ugly gritty experience that it actually was.


I am not missing the perspective of a survivor of an occupied country any more then you are unless you are 150+ years old. Yes, the union soldiers raped, pillaged, burned, and destroyed everything they didn’t steal. It was a war. Wars are often not fought….well…in a civil manner. Often the best soldiers are not the best citizens. The rebel soldiers weren’t the most gentleman like in their manner either.


Should you forget the sacifices of your ancestors? No, I would never forget mine. But at some point you must move on and not hold all that disdain inside. Just as ancestors of slaves must move on even though they were not treated very well by the people who bought, sold, raped, and generally treated them like animals. You can not forget that and you shouldn’t, but the war is over and it is just a bad chapter in the history of this country. We are now Americans. Where we live is just a direction on a map.
I have ancestors from both the north and south, as well as several ethnic backgrounds . I have ancestors who were raped, murdered, and enslaved by “citizens” of this country. I would not forget that, but I would rather look forward to a new day and only use the past as a model of a failed policy – what not to do.

I would also call that a unique perspective.
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

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Re: Grumblings Grow Louder

Postby billybud » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:22 pm

How come it is always northerners who feel that southerners need to let go...and white people that say that black people need to let go? Let go of what? Traditions? Folk culture? Does Kwanza make you nervous, do dashikis make you roll your eyes?

I think that some folks feel threatened by others having a special identity. It would be like telling Texans that there are more cattle in Florida than Texas (a true fact) or that cowboys were invented first on the spanish range in Florida as were cattle drives. But Texans like to feel "western" and we all don't feel threatened by that.

I don't hide my background or feelings...it is who I am...but I also am an intelligent guy. (I don't hide that either..LOL)

We southerners are historically conservative....in some areas, religiously nutty. I, personally, take a pass on snake handling.
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Re: Grumblings Grow Louder

Postby billybud » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:33 pm

I think that maybe, just maybe, non southerners don't realize how the aftermath of the war reverberated right through the 1960's and integration and MLK.

The Civil War wasn't, in the south, an isolated event now 150 years over, but rather a tremendous quake that had aftershocks for 100 years...

Just for those interested in history...the others can pass on this...

http://www.encyclopediaofalabama.org/fa ... ?id=h-1631
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Re: Grumblings Grow Louder

Postby Eric » Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:26 pm

billybud wrote:How come it is always northerners who feel that southerners need to let go...and white people that say that black people need to let go? Let go of what? Traditions? Folk culture? Does Kwanza make you nervous, do dashikis make you roll your eyes?

I think that some folks feel threatened by others having a special identity. It would be like telling Texans that there are more cattle in Florida than Texas (a true fact) or that cowboys were invented first on the spanish range in Florida as were cattle drives. But Texans like to feel "western" and we all don't feel threatened by that.

I don't hide my background or feelings...it is who I am...but I also am an intelligent guy. (I don't hide that either..LOL)

We southerners are historically conservative....in some areas, religiously nutty. I, personally, take a pass on snake handling.


I don't care if they have an identity or not. To me, as a "yankee", I just think the whole South vs. North thing is plain silly. The northerners are snobby usually towards the South and it makes the southerners more steadfast in their cultural heritage. I still have a right to think that the South feels jaded, which I believe to be obvious.

Well Billybud, it's good that you've proven to be completely objective on the matter while Spence still wallows in his subjective interpretation of reality :roll:

Is it possible that you lack the perspective of a northerner who feels that the South is jaded? Considering you have never been wrong on this board, I'm sure the answer is "no" :D

I usually try to stay as objective as I can, which I am sure you and Spence also do. But cultural conditioning is a hard thing to overcome; after all, it makes us who we are whether we like it or not.
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Re: Grumblings Grow Louder

Postby billybud » Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:39 pm

Eric...I don't think that jaded is the exact word you are looking for...it really doesn't fit your context.

Me? I just use these discussions as opportunities to learn...and to teach.

We all expand our knowledge by listening to others...and, yep, I will jab some if you don't fully develop your theme...It is a artifact of my past.

Goodnight...time to go upstairs.
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Re: Grumblings Grow Louder

Postby Eric » Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:42 pm

Yeah, you're probably right on that account. That's actually the first time I ever tried using the word, so my context was incorrect upon further inspection. I was wrong. 8)
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Re: Grumblings Grow Louder

Postby Eric » Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:47 pm

Spence wrote:
billybud wrote:Spence...you write from the perspective of an midwesterner, without any feel for the south at all. I have been exposed to both cultures since I am the unnatural prodigy of an Alabama girl and a Wisconsin boy. One GG grandfather rode with the Wisconsin 3rd Cavalry and another GG grandfather with the Johnny Rebs.

The perspective that you are missing is that of a survivor of an occupied country. The north was spared the concept of "total war". A war against civilians that had not been forgotten by my grandparents generation. At a time when a family depended on their crops and farm animals to survive, it was the policy of the union to burn and destroy. War widows and their children were starving because their crops and livestock were destroyed. The invading union armies burned homesteads, cities, pillaged and, yes, raped. That great southern shame is never spoken about by the victors, but the scars were carried by many families. My grandfather heard directly from his elders and I, of course, listened to the stories of my grandfather.

After the war, union armies occupied the south and yankee scalawags and carpetbaggers of every verminous stripe stole what wasn't nailed down and much of what was.

Why should we forget the sacrifices made by our ancestors? The south was decimated. Our men suffered casualty rates that make WWII losses look mild. Thirty percent of all southern males aged 18-40 died. Whole family lines ended. But a southern culture endured. Endured reconstruction, endured poverty. The great fight, over time, became a romanticized, sepia toned memory rather than the ugly gritty experience that it actually was.


I am not missing the perspective of a survivor of an occupied country any more then you are unless you are 150+ years old. Yes, the union soldiers raped, pillaged, burned, and destroyed everything they didn’t steal. It was a war. Wars are often not fought….well…in a civil manner. Often the best soldiers are not the best citizens. The rebel soldiers weren’t the most gentleman like in their manner either.


Should you forget the sacifices of your ancestors? No, I would never forget mine. But at some point you must move on and not hold all that disdain inside. Just as ancestors of slaves must move on even though they were not treated very well by the people who bought, sold, raped, and generally treated them like animals. You can not forget that and you shouldn’t, but the war is over and it is just a bad chapter in the history of this country. We are now Americans. Where we live is just a direction on a map.
I have ancestors from both the north and south, as well as several ethnic backgrounds . I have ancestors who were raped, murdered, and enslaved by “citizens” of this country. I would not forget that, but I would rather look forward to a new day and only use the past as a model of a failed policy – what not to do.

I would also call that a unique perspective.


Spence, I think that disdain arises from the inability to think for yourself. The minute you classify yourself into a group where you may be indirectly affected but not directly affected, I think playing the victim card may be an easy cop-out. I think it sounds harsh, but I believe there is some validity to it. If you are adversely affected directly, then I think you may have a gripe. Obviously there is a cause-and-effect chain like Billybud may point out, but you're not going to get anywhere by holding a grudge against the perpetrators who died over a century ago.
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Re: Grumblings Grow Louder

Postby Spence » Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:10 pm

billybud wrote:How come it is always northerners who feel that southerners need to let go...and white people that say that black people need to let go? Let go of what? Traditions? Folk culture? Does Kwanza make you nervous, do dashikis make you roll your eyes?

I think that some folks feel threatened by others having a special identity. It would be like telling Texans that there are more cattle in Florida than Texas (a true fact) or that cowboys were invented first on the spanish range in Florida as were cattle drives. But Texans like to feel "western" and we all don't feel threatened by that.

I don't hide my background or feelings...it is who I am...but I also am an intelligent guy. (I don't hide that either..LOL)

We southerners are historically conservative....in some areas, religiously nutty. I, personally, take a pass on snake handling.



It isn't about letting go. Letting go means forgeting the past and that shouldn't happen. Moving forward means learning from the past and moving forward. Holding a grudge against people who live across a particular border is silly IMO, especially for something that happened to people who are long ago dead. I don't expect to hold any special sympathy or special circumstances from people who died long ago just because we share DNA. You have to remember that your "special" identity is really only special to you. Mine only to me. No one else really gives two shakes. :wink:
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain


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