Ronald Reagan speaks out against Socialized Medicine, and..

[Eric]

But Doss, that's where you and I differ. I am who I am; nothing more, nothing less. I am not a better person necessarily because I'm American. I realize this is not your point, but I only represent myself and not America. Patriotism is a very collectivist attitude

My only point is that my being born here is an accident of happenstance, at least to me it is. Maybe divine serendipity, I can't say for sure . Its best for me not to take pride or shame in what other Americans have done. I appreciate the opportunity this country has given me and people who sacrificed themselves to allow that though, that has to be said.

[WoVeU]

I agree with you all, except for Eric...I don't know that he said anything. All different men with different views, yet all of them correct in the context given.

Much of this gets to responsibilities, rights, wants, and sacrifices. I think the real American idea is that people have the right to do anything they wish that doesn't effect others...at least notably and with reason applied. To live together and draw benefit as a society an individual has to make reasonable sacrifices...this is the same for a family, community, group, etc. This is the "no free lunch part." Today, many people think it is their responsibility to tell others how they should behave, live, believe, and think in matters extending all the way to the very personal and this is the other persons due sacrifice. This is how I believe people think these two relate...they wouldn't say it like that, but it sure seems to be what is demonstrated. A right in general is an allowance for a person to do something for themselves. A want generally means a person is needing more from another person or resource. We seem to get these last 2 crossed up today.

I agree on Donovan's definition on leader and thereby leadership. I loved Reagan and I voted for Clinton. While they did not share many ideologies I believed their spirits were very similar. They believed what they said and said what they believed. If you want to do a real good job of following or leading...the old adage applies..."say what you are going to do and then do what you said." Real simple.

[Eric]

Really, WoVeU? Clinton was the ultimate "whichever way the wind blows" candidate.

[WoVeU]

But Doss, that's where you and I differ. I am who I am; nothing more, nothing less. I am not a better person necessarily because I'm American. I realize this is not your point, but I only represent myself and not America. Patriotism is a very collectivist attitude

My only point is that my being born here is an accident of happenstance, at least to me it is. Maybe divine serendipity, I can't say for sure . Its best for me not to take pride or shame in what other Americans have done. I appreciate the opportunity this country has given me and people who sacrificed themselves to allow that though, that has to be said.

I think I know where you are driving.

If you mean, the accomplishments of others that came before you do NOT belong to you...you are correct. If you think Patriotism is a mechanism that allows an individual to claim the accomplishments of those that came before then you are pretty much wrong. In linkage to accomplishments of others and the development of a great (and living) country Patriotism generally promotes these advertisements of what can be done...not what a person has done. (But you make a good example of what many seem to do...claim the accomplishment of others.) Secondly, when you lift up and point to the accomplishments of others in the neighborhood of patriotism then it better mean you are following the example of those that came before you (and sacrificed) to leave something better than they found it and allow the next generation to do the same while drawing benefit of it during their tenure.

[Eric]

That's a good definition of what "patriotism" should be. Like Donovan said, I'm mainly a little more hostile to it than you guys because of the jingoistic attachments. I just don't buy into that.

It's like the same thing with my race. I don't take pride in the fact that I'm white (and 1/16 Native American ). If Wayne Chrebet (spelling?) caught a pass for the Jets, I didn't get a warm fuzzy feeling. Same thing if Toby Gerhart scores a touchdown. I'm not a minority here, but that's one sentiment I've never, ever been able to understand.

[WoVeU]

Really, WoVeU? Clinton was the ultimate "whichever way the wind blows" candidate.

I can see that you'd deem it such. He was in many respects. But in a manner it was due diligence. He was good at that, speaking it several ways and seemingly shifting his stance. He really never did..he wanted action. If that meant slanting it from the conservative thought on a solution and then throwing some liberal necessities and desires on top of it (trying to keep it workable...most things can be fixed using 65% middle, 25% left/right, 10% right/left.) Much is in the salesmanship and the belief, funding and people power behind it. IF...IF...IF at the core you have a true remedying and redeeming idea. I thought he was an artist with this. (Note how he could actually get something through congress.) Reagan did some of this but he had much more John Wayne in his swaying of the left.

[WoVeU]

That's a good definition of what "patriotism" should be. Like Donovan said, I'm mainly a little more hostile to it than you guys because of the jingoistic attachments. I just don't buy into that.

It's like the same thing with my race. I don't take pride in the fact that I'm white (and 1/16 Native American ). If Wayne Chrebet (spelling?) caught a pass for the Jets, I didn't get a warm fuzzy feeling. Same thing if Toby Gerhart scores a touchdown. I'm not a minority here, but that's one sentiment I've never, ever been able to understand.

the most destructive force to real Patriotism is Jingoism. A real Patriot stands behind ideas and philosophy. You don't stand behind a man or party or machine and say you are there to the death...that is what God invented marriage for. (And he said until adultery with that. Jingoism is the adultery upon Patriotism...you are sleeping with the wife's handmaiden...to whom she did not give you!)

[WoVeU]

Oh, when Divine scores I don't take credit. Only half credit, 3 pts!
Same with the other Eers...I have stats, and a list on the wall here at the house...I am leading the Eers in scoring!

[billybud]

Reagan was rich most of his life...living his final years of dementia on a palace of a ranch.

I am more concerned with the fact that the avarage retiree from the state of Florida has a retirement of less than $18,000 and insurance payments of $6,000 per year.

Rich people can afford to have a different ideology...one former rich lady is quoted as saying..."let them eat cake"....the Reagan of her age.

[Eric]

I suppose that makes Mr. Obama our Robespierre

[Spence]

Reagan was rich most of his life...living his final years of dementia on a palace of a ranch.

I am more concerned with the fact that the avarage retiree from the state of Florida has a retirement of less than $18,000 and insurance payments of $6,000 per year.

Rich people can afford to have a different ideology...one former rich lady is quoted as saying..."let them eat cake"....the Reagan of her age.

Reagan worked all his life - well into his 70's. He earned his money. In the end, you make your own bed.

Health insurance would be less money if they competed country wide not just state by state.

There are over two hundred millionares in congress. They don't seem to want to be a part of this "reform" That to me is saying "let them eat cake".

[billybud]

I don't give O'Bama that much credit, eric...

He is more of a Madame DeFarge.

[billybud]

Spence...Reagan was one of the blessed lucky ones. I guess that you could say that Reagan "worked"...if being filmed in movies a couple of months every few years is work.

But actors, politicians, and tycoons are not the standard american. For each of them, there are many, many more of the older former workers that our country depended on. Folks who worked long hours doing manual labor. Folks who built our houses, clerked our stores, cooked our food in restaurants, paved our highways, and drove our kids to school on buses. People now eaking out their remaining years on limited incomes with ever rising medical costs.

[Eric]

Something I noticed, but your signature would be a wise application of monetary policy, too!

51% decides they need 49%'s money in order to live a fulfilled life. 49% becomes a slave to the 51%. Doesn't matter which percentile you use, the bottom line is that it's wrong.

Plus, the market place has decided that acting is worth something, so yes, it is a way to make an honest living.

[billybud]

Honest livings are over rated.