Ronald Reagan speaks out against Socialized Medicine, and..

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Re: Ronald Reagan speaks out against Socialized Medicine, and..

Postby donovan » Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:04 pm

billybud wrote:Reagan was rich most of his life...living his final years of dementia on a palace of a ranch.

I am more concerned with the fact that the avarage retiree from the state of Florida has a retirement of less than $18,000 and insurance payments of $6,000 per year.

Rich people can afford to have a different ideology...one former rich lady is quoted as saying..."let them eat cake"....the Reagan of her age.


These are real problems. The Republicans deny there are any problems, the Democrats see a problem at every turn.

The idea of rich people having a different...the French quote implying indifference to the poor, ideology is the essence of the discussion of Aristotle and Plato. Plato speaks of the degenerate regimes after having spent considerable time describing an Aristocracy. Aristocracy in the classical sense is not rule by the few, or rule by the wealthy. Aristocracy for Plato meant rule by the virtuous. The ideal city would be ruled by a Philosopher king, but because no philosopher will want to rule in the city there must be a handful of virtuous individuals willing to rule, or a democracy. Our problem is we elect unvirtuous people and a lot of them.

We have failed in this country to understand the legitimate role of government is these affairs. There is, in my mind, a very simple litmus test if government should be involved. It is this. If the citizenry are taxed, then all citizens need access to the function for which they were taxed. E.g. Roads, everyone is taxed and everyone has access to roads, just obey a few rules and you can use them. Parks, fire department, police, armies all give benefits to all citizens. These become legitimate functions of government.

When we start taxing for special interest groups then we become corrupt. Virtuous leaders would not tax the poor or the rich to benefit a special interest group.

Because we tax we often artificially accelerate functions that would be best evolving more slowly. That allows ethics and morals to keep up the pace. It means we may not have all the inventions we now have, but at least we would not find ourselves with a health care that is superior to any place in the world and a delivery system that is absolutely broken.

We have people living much longer than when the current system(s) were designed and never address what needs to be done to correct this. (Our current system worked well when people retired at 65 and died at 75)

The simple answer is to elect virtuous people. Lord Acton said, "Liberty is not the power of doing what we like, but the right to do what we ought."

The complex answer is to find virtuous people that will stay that way.
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Re: Ronald Reagan speaks out against Socialized Medicine, and..

Postby billybud » Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:39 pm

Eric...the problem is not one of 51% or 49%.

It is one of the top 1/5 of the country's people having 80% of the wealth. It is the fact that between 1975 and current, the bottom 80% of the income brackets have seen a decline in their income. Bloomberg.com recently reported on a study showing that "top private-equity and hedge fund managers made more in 10 minutes than average-paid U.S. workers earned all of last year". We have princes and serfs.

It is a fact that the rich have been getting richer and the rest poorer. And maybe that isn't a great thing for America. More of us are beginning to believe that. Not that it has changed our attitude about government's role in attaining a more equal distribution of wealth.

Americans are far more likely than Europeans to believe that individuals, not society, are responsible for their own failures. It is inbred, part of our cultural tradition. If the individual fails economically, we believe that he is at fault. If he had worked harder, gone to school longer, been wiser, he would have been successful.
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Re: Ronald Reagan speaks out against Socialized Medicine, and..

Postby Spence » Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:52 pm

billybud wrote:Spence...Reagan was one of the blessed lucky ones. I guess that you could say that Reagan "worked"...if being filmed in movies a couple of months every few years is work.

But actors, politicians, and tycoons are not the standard american. For each of them, there are many, many more of the older former workers that our country depended on. Folks who worked long hours doing manual labor. Folks who built our houses, clerked our stores, cooked our food in restaurants, paved our highways, and drove our kids to school on buses. People now eaking out their remaining years on limited incomes with ever rising medical costs.


I understand your point. I just think the ever rising health costs will get worse under the system I am hearing about. I'm not filthy rich. I'm also not poor by anyone's standard. I go to work evrey day. I work more hours a year than most people who work for me. I currently pay $28,000 a month for health insurance in total. People keep telling me that it isn't enough. That I should pay that and pay 20% more in taxes to cover other people that I do not know.

Now, I will tell you what will happen. The government creates a public option. The charge me more to pay for it. I tell my employees - who currently have pretty good insurance - to take the public option because I can't pay for both. The price goes up. The fewer people in the marketplace that sell a product, the more that product will cost. It is supply and demand. If I have something you need, I can charge more. If I have something you do not need, but might want - I have to bargain to get you to by it.

There is no such thing as the government paying for anything. The government does not produce or process anything - except maybe idiots - They redistribute wealth. If there is no wealth the government is broke. Right now we are printing money we do not have backing for, other countries are still investing in the dollar - but when they decide it is a bad investment then we are in trouble. The poor in this country who think it is bad now, wait until there is no money to take care of them.


The government needs to get out of the charity business and let the people take back control of helping the poor. The people do a much better job.
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Re: Ronald Reagan speaks out against Socialized Medicine, and..

Postby Eric » Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:25 pm

What's funny is that in America you can voluntarily join a socialist or even communist community. If you had the will to do it, go for it! "But you'd never get rich people into the system!" What's that? You want to force people to contribute to socialist policies. That is just a disregard of every notion of individuality.

Billybud, I take issue with that statement. Who sets the parameters of what is a "good" wage and at what point is it okay to stop stealing their money? That's basically what it comes down to. Taxation is unjust at its core in my book, but it is a necessary evil. You have a centralized authority taking assets at gunpoint to even a debt that was never consented to. You're still dodging my question. What gives society the right to steal other people's money? They made it, so its theirs (for the most part, obviously you still need government to function).
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Re: Ronald Reagan speaks out against Socialized Medicine, and..

Postby billybud » Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:56 pm

What gives "society" the right to protect even rich people from robbery, rape and murder, Eric? What gives society the right to imprison people? What gives government the right to build roads, especially since private property must be taken to build those roads? What right does government have to enforce copywrites or not allow a monopoly? The same right that government has to assure that one small section of society does not have all of the resources.

Governments have the right to find a path that best serves their citizens.

Government exists to protect and serve the people, not just some of the people. In a world of dog eat dog, a world without government, the strongest subjugate the weak and you have a very stratified society. Those with resources and power who rule and the rest who live a life of serfdom. The model existed in the middle ages, before governments, when princes were warlords with domains and castles and owned all of their subjects. They were all powerful and you lived or died at their whim. Your family belonged to them. It was a society of "let the strongest prevail". There are still some areas of the world where this system is in place.

Eric, governments have not only the "right" to see that their citizens live the best possible life, they have that responsibility. And that includes a just distribution of a society's resources.

Although I am not that politically oriented, one of my favorite guys is Kenneth Baer...who was a sometimes speechwriter for Gore....Speaking of Obama and his ideas...."New Democrats need to be just as critical of those who would simply pare back the brain-dead ideas of the Republican right as they are of those who espouse the brain-dead dogmas of the Democratic left."
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Re: Ronald Reagan speaks out against Socialized Medicine, and..

Postby donovan » Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:48 pm

Billybud, yes..thanks for your service. I think your comment zeros in on what is wrong. You have one side that wants everything done by the government and the other side in denial there are problems. Solutions are many, some by everything from the individual to the Federal government. Debate on where the issue should be solved is what a democracy is about. We debate nothing anymore only knee jerk reaction of both sides.
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Re: Ronald Reagan speaks out against Socialized Medicine, and..

Postby Spence » Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:08 pm

...."New Democrats need to be just as critical of those who would simply pare back the brain-dead ideas of the Republican right as they are of those who espouse the brain-dead dogmas of the Democratic left."


I would change new Democrats to all politicians and all citizens, but on this we agree totally. I believe the government should protect and serve the people. I don't believe you should get out of going to jail because you won a Heisman trophy at USC and are a bad actor. We have to many people who don't contribute to society. We have people who have money that say " the government should help those people...the government should save the children....the government should....." It is up to those people personally to invest not only money, but time into helping people who are disadvantaged. Just as bad as the people unwillling to invest in their community are the people who have no intentions of helping themselves or anyone else. Then there are a bunch of people in the middle who mostly do all the volunteer work. They help raise money. They organize activities for the youth and all sorts of other investments into their community. If all people made investments into their community, no one would starve and no one would sleep in the street. Children would get what they need to be productive and everyone would pull together and help the ones who can't really can't take care of themselves.

I don't belong to any political party, but I am very political as it effects my life. I believe that everyone should take care of themselves as is possible and we should all help our family, friends, and neighbors if and when they run into trouble. That is the way it once was and the way it should be. We can't turn our back on those less fortunate, but we shouldn't give anyone a pass for not trying either. None of us should look for the government to give us anything but peace of mind and they aren't delivering on that and haven't in a very long time.
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Re: Ronald Reagan speaks out against Socialized Medicine, and..

Postby Dossenator » Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:10 pm

My wife and I work hard for our money...and we do pretty well for ourselves. We are not rich by any means but we do make enough to help our family when they need it (Spence's point...let people help others...do not rely on government...they get it wrong more times than not).

My wife and I both went to school: my wife has 3 degrees as do I. We believe we help others with our taxes enough....we paid in over $30,000 dollars in income taxes last year and got back about $5,000. I have an aunt that paid in about $1,000 and she got back over $2,000. She does not make a lot of money but enough to pay her bills, put food on the table, have a place to live, and shop on QVC, etc. She finished high school but has no training of any kind. She works at a daycare. That is great but why should others who work hard for their money be expected to give even more money then they give now.

My wife and I also have family members on welfare, food stamps, disablity, etc...and many of them do not deserve it. They are playing the system. My wife has an aunt and uncle who divorced so they could keep drawing money from the government. They lived together until her aunt passed away last year....the only reason they got a divorce was to keep the money coming in so they would not have to work. I for one am sick and tired of giving money to those who should not be getting it.

Obama's plan is to redistribute wealth. The left's agenda is to make everyone equal...equally poor with no chance of advancement. They see wealth as a sin....and believe they are best suited in telling us how to spend our money.
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Re: Ronald Reagan speaks out against Socialized Medicine, and..

Postby Spence » Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:24 pm

The whole point is that the government can not make people do the right thing. We must individually do the right things. We sometimes would rather pass it off to the government and by a new toy or take that trip.
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Re: Ronald Reagan speaks out against Socialized Medicine, and..

Postby donovan » Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:59 pm

Sometimes we need to work backwards and elucidate what kind of country do we want to live in.

1. In peace, willing to defend our country, but living in peace through a strong defense.

2. Where no person goes to bed hungry because they do not have food.

3. Where no one needs to sleep outside because they do not have shelter

4. Crime free, where justice is just and citizens live without an abnormal concern for their safety.

5. A pollution free environment, where conservation is practiced.

6. Where medical treatment that is available is not denied because of cost.

The bill of rights...I like them

Then I have to say....what needs to be done to so these things can happen?
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Re: Ronald Reagan speaks out against Socialized Medicine, and..

Postby Spence » Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:24 pm

It takes everybody doing their part. Not only doing their part as in working to try and contribute, but helping a neighbor when they are down or sick. It can be done if people would quit expecting this inhuman entity - the government - to do it. It can't and shouldn't because taking our responsibilites as human beings away is stripping us of our humanity. It may take a village, but the village needs to work one person, one family at a time.
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Re: Ronald Reagan speaks out against Socialized Medicine, and..

Postby donovan » Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:46 pm

I do not want to live in a society that has Social Darwinism as its standard nor do I want to live in a society that has Communism as its panacea. I suspect most of us on this board feel the same way. So the question remains, well better yet, lets just talk about one specific area. Health care. Should any person on American soil, regardless of how they got there, be denied health treatment because they have no money?
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Re: Ronald Reagan speaks out against Socialized Medicine, and..

Postby Eric » Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:52 pm

Well, I guess you could say that the new feudalism isn't this lassiez-faire society which you dread, it's statism. People have different definitions of what government should do. Some would like to spend your tax money on nation-building. Some would spend your tax money on enforcing segregation. The problem is when you have people doing things with your money that you don't agree with, what gives them the right to do such a thing? If you take from another because you think you need it, would you accept it? Your neighbor knocks on your door and, with threat of imprisonment, says, "hey, give me what you've got in your cupboard because I'm hungry, or else I'll lock you up." It's your food, shouldn't you decide what to do with it? I'm sure since you're a nice person and all that you'd give them food if they came to your house starving. But it's your food, your decision. The problem here is that you do this to faceless individuals and take their money from them in an INvoluntary non-exchange of services.

The problem here is that we're all in glass houses, if you make a million dollars a year or $100,000. Any money spent on a frivolous item (such as a Harley for you or an ESPN 360 package for me) could have fed a family in Mozambique. We're selfish creatures and that isn't going to change. It might over time, but not for the time being. I just see taxation as a necessary evil so we can afford defense, protection, and education for people. While I dislike the idea of the state at its core (doesn't make me an anarchist or anything, I just don't like forcing people to do things against their will), there has to be a state to have a civil society. Therefore, I want to keep taxation to a minimum. I think the government is there to protect our natural rights, and that's about it.

Of course, some think health is a natural right. Some think shelter is, some think food is. It's a complicated issue and one that nobody will ever be satisfied with.
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Re: Ronald Reagan speaks out against Socialized Medicine, and..

Postby Spence » Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:59 pm

donovan wrote:I do not want to live in a society that has Social Darwinism as its standard nor do I want to live in a society that has Communism as its panacea. I suspect most of us on this board feel the same way. So the question remains, well better yet, lets just talk about one specific area. Health care. Should any person on American soil, regardless of how they got there, be denied health treatment because they have no money?


No person should be denied life saving healthcare. I believe that only people "on the grid" should be part of the overall system. I don't believe you let anyone die even if they happen to be here illegally. I don't think you should open all the doors to them either - maybe save their life then send them home. :wink: The payment would be not having to pay for them anymore.
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Re: Ronald Reagan speaks out against Socialized Medicine, and..

Postby donovan » Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:21 pm

This is what I think, regarding health care....and you can substitute most any area.


There are many health care facilities out there where the doctors, etc, feel an obligation to help those that can not afford services. They can do it on an individual basis...that is done right now.....or they can form a coalition of...."we help the needy doctors" They can set up the rules and the requirements, maybe they will contribute money to an insurance to spread the risk...will have a limit...and they can be the deciders. They know their limits and what they can do. Maybe some do not want to join..OK.......and if no one does..then the poor do not get taken care of. This works for most any issue. What happens now, is we are taxed to take care of the problem, it does not get taken care of and there is no money left for making it voluntary. Private individuals can make it happen, given a chance. I must say....in the USA today, I do not know of one person that can not get medical help even if they have no money.
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