US Military Base Shooting...

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donovan
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Re: US Military Base Shooting...

Postby donovan » Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:06 am

I would suggest that this synopsis serves to at least make the point, that violence is generally on the fringe. The United States has in its history extermination orders for members of certain religions, not interested in revisiting that history.

Baha' i Faith:
"Ascribe not to any soul that which thou wouldst not have ascribed to thee, and say not that which thou doest not." "Blessed is he who preferreth his brother before himself." Baha'u'llah

Brahmanism:
"This is the sum of Dharma [duty]: Do naught unto others which would cause you pain if done to you". Mahabharata, 5:1517 "

Buddhism:
"Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful." Udana-Varga 5:18

Christianity:
"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12, King James Version.

Confucianism:
"Do not do to others what you do not want them to do to you"
Analects 15:23

Ancient Egyptian:
"Do for one who may do for you, that you may cause him thus to do." The Tale of the Eloquent Peasant, 109 - 110 Translated by R.B. Parkinson. The original dates to 1970 to 1640 BCE and may be the earliest version ever written.

Epictetus:
"What would avoid suffering yourself, seek not to impose on others." (circa 100 CE)

Hinduism:
"This is the sum of duty: do not do to others what would cause pain if done to you." Mahabharata 5:1517

Humanism:
"Don't do things you wouldn't want to have done to you." British Humanist Society.

Islam:
"None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself." Number 13 of Imam "Al-Nawawi's Forty Hadiths."

Jainism:
"A man should wander about treating all creatures as he himself would be treated. "Sutrakritanga 1.11.33

Judaism:
"What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow man. This is the law: all the rest is commentary." Talmud, Shabbat 31a.

Kant:
"Act as if the maxim of thy action were to become by thy will a universal law of nature."

Native American Spirituality:
"Do not wrong or hate your neighbor. For it is not he who you wrong, but yourself." Pima proverb.

Plato:
"May I do to others as I would that they should do unto me." (Greece, 4th Century BCE)

Roman Pagan Religion:
"The law imprinted on the hearts of all men is to love the members of society as themselves."

Seneca:
"Treat you inferior as you as you would be treated by your superiors." (Epistle 47:11 Rome 1st Century CE)

Shinto:
"The heart of the person before you is a mirror. See there your own form"

Sikhism:
"Don't create enmity with anyone as God is within everyone." Guru Arjan Devji 259

Socrates:
"Do not do to other that which would anger you if others did it to you." Greece, 4th Century BCE)

Sufism:
"The basis of Sufism is consideration of the hearts and feelings of others. If you haven't the will to gladden someone's heart, then at least beware lest you hurt someone's heart, for on our path, no sin exists but this." Dr. Javad Nurbakhsh, Master of the Nimatullahi Sufi Order.

Taoism:
"Regard your neighbor's gain as your own gain, and your neighbor's loss as your own loss." T'ai Shang Kan Ying P'ien.

Unitarian:
"The inherent worth and dignity of every person;"
Unitarian principles.

Wicca:
"An it harm no one, do what thou wilt" (i.e. do what ever you will, as long as it harms nobody, including yourself). One's will is to be carefully thought out in advance of action. This is called the Wiccan Rede

Yoruba: (Nigeria):
"One going to take a pointed stick to pinch a baby bird should first try it on himself to feel how it hurts."

Zoroastrianism:
"That nature alone is good which refrains from doing unto another whatsoever is not good for itself".
Dadistan-i-dinik 94:5

Of all the diversity in the world in religion and philosophy, from academcia to the true scholars of human existence, loving mothers, the message is the same, be kind, be respectful and do nothing that you would not like done to you.
As I age it is hard to tell if I am inspired by reasoned passion or arthritic knees; most likely it is arthritic reasoning.

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Re: US Military Base Shooting...

Postby Derek » Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:19 am

billybud wrote:Derek...it troubles me that you seem to be condemning one billion people because of a minority of zealots.

Sure, we are at war with terrorists. We are not at war with islam. Al Queda and 9/11, when you get down to it, involved less than 30 people. Sure these guys want to kill us, but it is a major stretch to say all islam wants to kill us. They do want to preserve their culture and religion and they do fear western intent. While we may not want our country ruled by sharia, they also might feel that americans are pushing democracy throughout the region and the liberal excess (to a conservative culture) that may accompany this change. As we resist the "islamification" of the world, they resist the americanization of the world.


It troubles me that you have a problem distinguishing Christians from these killers. And that your statements...at their core..imply that WE are the problem.


And it troubles me that you mistate my thinking and that you don't think that we are part of the problem.


I never said we are at war with all of Islam. I SAID...that I don't trust them, and watch the local community center for Islamic youth with great interest as do the local police. Yes, we have one of those here in Fayetteville.

Their holy book says it's OK to lie in the pursuit of their jihad. So no, I don't trust ANY of them until they have earned it. They are not interested in preserving their culture. They are interested in bring forth the 12th Imam, and pretty much world chaos. That's why Iran would have NO problem wiping out Tel Aviv, knowing that it would result in their destruction. They will do it in a second.

As far as me not thinking we are not part of the problem, You are correct.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZiw3qVdFzw
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Re: US Military Base Shooting...

Postby WoVeU » Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:33 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZiw3qVdFzw


That was awesome, thanks Derek!

Simply 5 minutes of truth. I forget what happened in all the mess that surrounded Gingrich, but I came to the conclusion a few years ago he was probably the smartest career politician I have ever heard. And look back...somehow he and Clinton and those on Capitol Hill actually got things done. These clown we have now couldn't get one of those "egg babies" through the Hill.

When we get leaders on the Hill who are more committed to accomplishing the goal of the people rather than towing the party line and keeping score, we might actually fix something. Since it appears we will never fix the 2 Party System, we need to start forming grass root coalitions of liberals, conservatives, libertarians, green party people and what have you. And let them work on agreeable solutions and trade-offs to tackle issues that have gotten nothing but band-aids and serve to drive this country off track and into debt. Then get these "needs of the people" signed and toted to our "representative's" offices and demand action. Because right now we are going backwards fast!
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Re: US Military Base Shooting...

Postby Spence » Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:11 am

Gringrich was forced to resigned because he had and affair and left his wife. His party doesn't take kindly to that. Gingrich is good because he doesn't pull punches. He is a bright guy, isn't politically correct in the least, and calls everything the way he sees it. It is a shame the Republicans let him lose his position in their party.
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

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Re: US Military Base Shooting...

Postby donovan » Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:42 am

So if Gingrich is correct, and I have no reason to believe he is not, What civil liberties are you willing to give up to fight this war?
As I age it is hard to tell if I am inspired by reasoned passion or arthritic knees; most likely it is arthritic reasoning.

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Re: US Military Base Shooting...

Postby Derek » Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:53 pm

WoVeU wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZiw3qVdFzw


That was awesome, thanks Derek!

Simply 5 minutes of truth. I forget what happened in all the mess that surrounded Gingrich, but I came to the conclusion a few years ago he was probably the smartest career politician I have ever heard. And look back...somehow he and Clinton and those on Capitol Hill actually got things done. These clown we have now couldn't get one of those "egg babies" through the Hill.

When we get leaders on the Hill who are more committed to accomplishing the goal of the people rather than towing the party line and keeping score, we might actually fix something. Since it appears we will never fix the 2 Party System, we need to start forming grass root coalitions of liberals, conservatives, libertarians, green party people and what have you. And let them work on agreeable solutions and trade-offs to tackle issues that have gotten nothing but band-aids and serve to drive this country off track and into debt. Then get these "needs of the people" signed and toted to our "representative's" offices and demand action. Because right now we are going backwards fast!


I agree. There is a lot of that going on now, with liberals having some serious issues with what Obama is tyring to do to the press and other things.

When liberals that worked with Jimmy Carter start saying these things. There are problems. You just won't hear it on the news, because they are protect mode.
They’re either going to run the ball here or their going to pass it.

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Re: US Military Base Shooting...

Postby Derek » Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:57 pm

donovan wrote:So if Gingrich is correct, and I have no reason to believe he is not, What civil liberties are you willing to give up to fight this war?


I don't think that's what he's saying.

He's not saying that you HAVE to give up liberty to win this....He's saying...that...people.. :lol: ....need to take the issue seriously. And that it's the political correctness that will cause us to give up freedoms after another attack.

Fort Hood proved him right.
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Re: US Military Base Shooting...

Postby donovan » Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:36 pm

I know what he said. I am saying...identifying the problem is fine...time for some hard core solutions. Does not take a mental giant to know there are issues. I am saying, that in war, civil liberties are curtailed. Watch the WWII film and you will see a lot of them, and we are mostly OK with that. Very tough call, but Americans want it all and never want to pay a price. Freedom is not free.
As I age it is hard to tell if I am inspired by reasoned passion or arthritic knees; most likely it is arthritic reasoning.

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Re: US Military Base Shooting...

Postby Spence » Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:54 pm

donovan wrote:I know what he said. I am saying...identifying the problem is fine...time for some hard core solutions. Does not take a mental giant to know there are issues. I am saying, that in war, civil liberties are curtailed. Watch the WWII film and you will see a lot of them, and we are mostly OK with that. Very tough call, but Americans want it all and never want to pay a price. Freedom is not free.



No one seems to understand that anymore. We want to fight wars where no one without a weapon gets hurt I only see one way to fight a war - you fight to win the war and to hell with the PR. After you win you can go over strategies and preceedures and change them as needed. During the war you just win and get the troops home. The safety of our men and women in the arms forces should be the only concern when forming and executing strategy.
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

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Re: US Military Base Shooting...

Postby WoVeU » Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:38 pm

Spence wrote:
donovan wrote:I know what he said. I am saying...identifying the problem is fine...time for some hard core solutions. Does not take a mental giant to know there are issues. I am saying, that in war, civil liberties are curtailed. Watch the WWII film and you will see a lot of them, and we are mostly OK with that. Very tough call, but Americans want it all and never want to pay a price. Freedom is not free.



No one seems to understand that anymore. We want to fight wars where no one without a weapon gets hurt I only see one way to fight a war - you fight to win the war and to hell with the PR. After you win you can go over strategies and preceedures and change them as needed. During the war you just win and get the troops home. The safety of our men and women in the arms forces should be the only concern when forming and executing strategy.


Since the Big Ones...civilians haven't gotten that.

And Newt is right in his simple statement, same as Donovan is saying. Before you go to war you take account of what you have and it what it will take to meet the enemy in battle. Or you don't go into battle. I love this way of saying it...

Luke Ch.14
31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?

32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.

And as Spence points out...the people always must sacrifice in a war. How much more so in a war that is fought abroad and in your neighborhood...where you too are a target. So Newt, is saying to all of us, as Donovan quotes...what are you willing to sacrifice? This really gets down to, "how important is it to you?" Until you can answer this you aren't ready to fight! And I got news for everyone, so is the key to life. You want that big house? You want that car? You want health care? You want a great education? Do you want these things or others too? What is it worth to you?

(Note: To many it seems they are standing ready for me to give up and sacrifice many things for what they want. While the commence to sitting a fine couch!)
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Re: US Military Base Shooting...

Postby Derek » Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:29 pm

Spence wrote:
donovan wrote:I know what he said. I am saying...identifying the problem is fine...time for some hard core solutions. Does not take a mental giant to know there are issues. I am saying, that in war, civil liberties are curtailed. Watch the WWII film and you will see a lot of them, and we are mostly OK with that. Very tough call, but Americans want it all and never want to pay a price. Freedom is not free.



No one seems to understand that anymore. We want to fight wars where no one without a weapon gets hurt I only see one way to fight a war - you fight to win the war and to hell with the PR. After you win you can go over strategies and preceedures and change them as needed. During the war you just win and get the troops home. The safety of our men and women in the arms forces should be the only concern when forming and executing strategy.


Ditto to both of you!!!!!!! 8)
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Re: US Military Base Shooting...

Postby Derek » Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:31 pm

WoVeU wrote:
Spence wrote:
donovan wrote:I know what he said. I am saying...identifying the problem is fine...time for some hard core solutions. Does not take a mental giant to know there are issues. I am saying, that in war, civil liberties are curtailed. Watch the WWII film and you will see a lot of them, and we are mostly OK with that. Very tough call, but Americans want it all and never want to pay a price. Freedom is not free.



No one seems to understand that anymore. We want to fight wars where no one without a weapon gets hurt I only see one way to fight a war - you fight to win the war and to hell with the PR. After you win you can go over strategies and preceedures and change them as needed. During the war you just win and get the troops home. The safety of our men and women in the arms forces should be the only concern when forming and executing strategy.


Since the Big Ones...civilians haven't gotten that.

And Newt is right in his simple statement, same as Donovan is saying. Before you go to war you take account of what you have and it what it will take to meet the enemy in battle. Or you don't go into battle. I love this way of saying it...

Luke Ch.14
31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?

32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.

And as Spence points out...the people always must sacrifice in a war. How much more so in a war that is fought abroad and in your neighborhood...where you too are a target. So Newt, is saying to all of us, as Donovan quotes...what are you willing to sacrifice? This really gets down to, "how important is it to you?" Until you can answer this you aren't ready to fight! And I got news for everyone, so is the key to life. You want that big house? You want that car? You want health care? You want a great education? Do you want these things or others too? What is it worth to you?

(Note: To many it seems they are standing ready for me to give up and sacrifice many things for what they want. While the commence to sitting a fine couch!)


Ditto to you as well SIR!!

It's hard to argue with the "double edged sword".
They’re either going to run the ball here or their going to pass it.

The fewer rules a coach has, the fewer rules there are for players to break.

- John Madden

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Re: US Military Base Shooting...

Postby WoVeU » Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:32 pm

It's hard to argue with the "double edged sword".
:wink:
Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves.
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
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Re: US Military Base Shooting...

Postby Eric » Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:15 pm

Here's an interesting video I stumbled across that relates to our discussion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTnbtSvjAQc&feature=related

Sorry, I know everybody but Billybud might cringe at the producer of this documentary :lol:
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Re: US Military Base Shooting...

Postby WoVeU » Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:01 am

donovan wrote:So if Gingrich is correct, and I have no reason to believe he is not, What civil liberties are you willing to give up to fight this war?


I can give you at least 1 answer. I got an email today on H.R.45 as Introduced in House: Blair Holt's Firearm Licensing and Record of Sale Act of 2009. (There was additional junk in there about having to list your guns and other things on your tax return and pay $50 per and other things. Email junk additions.) But I would get certified, give prints, submit to licensing and a bunch of other crap if it would greatly aid in the War on Terror. And I have never been willing to do so for the War on Drugs...which is a myth.)

*But I would never hand my guns over. And if they somehow took mine then I'd mill my own. And if I was forced to do that I might as well make more powerful weapons than I have ever owned.
Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves.
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
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