Congress in Fantasy Land....

[WoVeU]

Come on gentlemen. Hearing much on the supply side of all this and so forth. One big problem on the supply side is big Pharms...this is absolutely gotten ridiculous and no light can be found for a common person in all the stuff they shove down people's throats. A considerable amount of the rest of the problem is bogus demand. And most of the bogus visits to doctors and e-rooms are in the hopes of scoring dope. But due to lawyers and oversight...let's run a bunch of tests and have follow up appointments before and while we dispense narcotics! If you got the lawyers, guns, and money out of the health system, I think it would do just fine!

[Derek]

Instead of continuing the discussion down the road of what we can afford and what we cannot, or even what we would like to have.....Can someone show me the part of the Constitution or any of the Amendments that gives the Federal Guv-mint the power to do what they are trying to do.

It just seems to me that in all of the talk for and against the Universal Health Care model, the legality of it is completely lost.

I think people should think about it from that standpoint. If you yield power here, where does it stop????

[donovan]

This country is chasing its tail trying to fix symptoms of all sorts, healthcare, crime, war, racism, poverty, immigration, BCS football polls and economic crisis.

Time we fixed the problem. This country has a moral crisis of epidemic proportion and it crops up symptomatically as all the listed above....and more. Time we addressed the problem..then the symptoms will then go away.

[Spence]

This country is chasing its tail trying to fix symptoms of all sorts, healthcare, crime, war, racism, poverty, immigration, BCS football polls and economic crisis.

Time we fixed the problem. This country has a moral crisis of epidemic proportion and it crops up symptomatically as all the listed above....and more. Time we addressed the problem..then the symptoms will then go away.

Exactly. Most things fix when people do the right thing without any oversite.

[billybud]

Hey..I am all for less government...

But I know what I am seeing when I look at those pictures of a time without much government interference...those shots of kids working in the mills, in the mines, women in the New York sweatshops, the factories belching out fumes, lynchings in Mississippi....

Government isn't bad..it is needed. It is determing when and how much that is the trick...and there, we all disagree. We all know that we do not want a Somalia without a government, where any guy with money can arm goons and control his neighborhood and we know that we aren't ready to live like Swedes in a more socialistic state (although Swedes do score high on the quality of life index).

But, health care is broken and needs fixing. $12,000 a year for health care insurance is too much. Do I want to go back to my great grandfather's day where few saw a hospital? Where life expectancy was years lower? Where cancer was a death sentence? Where there was no such thing as health insurance?

With health care costs going up at rates two or three times that of wages, we are approaching a system where the government participates or only the top 20% of the population gets care. Little or severly compromised health care for those who are not well off.

[donovan]

And I think that is exactly the point, the system is broke. How we fix it is great debate. What we can not do is think the status quo serves us well. I think you have spoken well, Billybud...

[Eric]

Hey..I am all for less government...

But I know what I am seeing when I look at those pictures of a time without much government interference...those shots of kids working in the mills, in the mines, women in the New York sweatshops, the factories belching out fumes, lynchings in Mississippi....

Government isn't bad..it is needed. It is determing when and how much that is the trick...and there, we all disagree. We all know that we do not want a Somalia without a government, where any guy with money can arm goons and control his neighborhood and we know that we aren't ready to live like Swedes in a more socialistic state (although Swedes do score high on the quality of life index).

But, health care is broken and needs fixing. $12,000 a year for health care insurance is too much. Do I want to go back to my great grandfather's day where few saw a hospital? Where life expectancy was years lower? Where cancer was a death sentence? Where there was no such thing as health insurance?

With health care costs going up at rates two or three times that of wages, we are approaching a system where the government participates or only the top 20% of the population gets care. Little or severly compromised health care for those who are not well off.

The government, as collectivists see it, is a means to force their economic ideology on everyone else. The government's attempts to control the economy have screwed up, no question about it. I agree that we need to use some government agencies for our protection, but I don't think slashing federal spending, abolishing the Fed, limiting the IRS, cutting waste in social programs, and eliminating the Department of Education will lead to Somalia . This is where most libertarians draw the line. I don't take issue with keeping environmental and other policies at the sate level to set minimum expectations.

[WoVeU]

This country is chasing its tail trying to fix symptoms of all sorts, healthcare, crime, war, racism, poverty, immigration, BCS football polls and economic crisis.

Time we fixed the problem. This country has a moral crisis of epidemic proportion and it crops up symptomatically as all the listed above....and more. Time we addressed the problem..then the symptoms will then go away.

ANd that is another problem (yes, the symptom thing is huge!) But if we do chase symptoms, like most Americans, can we pick one? Beat the mess out of it...kick in the ground, stomp it, etc., etc., until it is dead, dead, dead! Then move on to number 2!

I bet if you took the money Bill Gates, Oprah, Brad and Angelina, and another 20 or 30 of the top philanthropists and got them on one problem, and used their celebrity along with the organizations already fighting something and the current government allocation to the cause you could fix just about any problem...except for Health Care!

[WoVeU]

We have a bigger problem with government! A government is their to perform the collective needs and provide for protection of a people. We can't do that now...we have way too many people of too many ideologies. I think this marriage has out-lived it's love! Short of pushing more to State Level and going back to a United "States" I just don't think you can get enough agreement and backing for anything to work! We likely need a United States of 3 Regions, a left, a right, and a middle. Free trade with each other, free pass through borders, and perhaps a shared military, highway, and utility system.

[Eric]

Here's the issue facing the states that vote liberally: They suffer economically. If you're in Michigan, California, Ohio, or New York, you can move a couple states away with fewer punitive taxes and operate from there. What small business in their right mind would open a business with the taxation that we have in my State?

This is the reason why the Obama crowd would have to operate from the Federal level because then no business could escape cap and trade and health taxes.

[Dossenator]

California is in disarray....government is crippled financially because they overspent, non citizens everywhere draining the system (healthcare, education, etc), taxing people to death to keep the liberal socialist programs running....and now businesses are up and moving to Arizona, Nevada (mostly to Vegas), etc furthering CA's problem. I am guessing the same things are happening in the other states you mentioned Eric.

I know I said this many times....but I can't wait to get back to Arkansas permanently. The problem is I can't sell my property until the price goes up...and who knows when that will happen in CA. Not any time soon.

[Spence]

Hey..I am all for less government...

But I know what I am seeing when I look at those pictures of a time without much government interference...those shots of kids working in the mills, in the mines, women in the New York sweatshops, the factories belching out fumes, lynchings in Mississippi....

Government isn't bad..it is needed. It is determing when and how much that is the trick...and there, we all disagree. We all know that we do not want a Somalia without a government, where any guy with money can arm goons and control his neighborhood and we know that we aren't ready to live like Swedes in a more socialistic state (although Swedes do score high on the quality of life index).

But, health care is broken and needs fixing. $12,000 a year for health care insurance is too much. Do I want to go back to my great grandfather's day where few saw a hospital? Where life expectancy was years lower? Where cancer was a death sentence? Where there was no such thing as health insurance?

With health care costs going up at rates two or three times that of wages, we are approaching a system where the government participates or only the top 20% of the population gets care. Little or severly compromised health care for those who are not well off.

I never said government is bad. I believe the states should be the ones working on the problem. 50 models, see which ones work and which do not. $12,000 isn't uncommon for health insurance. It is, though, too much - I agree. Letting the federal government - who has never ran one successfull program - never came under budget on a program - never ever cut spending only reduced the amount of increase - just seems like a bad idea to me.

Under the constitution the federal government was set up to have the power they have now. The federal government was never meant to dictate to the states. The more removed the government is from the people, the more out of touch the politicians are from the people. This is far from a Democrat, Republican thing. None of these politicians are beholden to the people. They have their own agenda's and unless you are paying them lots of money - you're not a part of it. I want my governor and state representitives to tell me how they can go about fixing the problems. I can have an impact with my vote on them. That isn't the case with the federal government. We don't have some models that fail some that suceed. We have all our eggs in one basket. That isn't smart.

They keep promising us free stuff, nothing is free.

[Eric]

I think the federal government is allowed to dictate certain things to the states via the supremacy clause. However, I agree that the federal government should do what the Constitution says it should. The thing here is that the 10th amendment clearly states that the powers not granted to the federal government are supposed to be monitored at the state level. This is definitely not happening

I think the whole deal with state's rights is partially affected by how our mindset has evolved as Americans. As it became easier to communicate and stay connected with people on the other side of the country, I think we all started thinking in a national mindset instead of a state mindset. Civil rights was the nail in the coffin for state's rights. I'm by NO MEANS making excuses for segregation and I think the Civil Rights Act was necessary, just to clarify. My only point is that Americans felt the need to make every law from the national level instead of the local level. We need an amendment protecting marriage! We need to have the Supreme Court dictate that abortions are legal everywhere! We need to set up national social insurance programs! We need national academic standards! And so on and so forth.

[Spence]

So much of what the states should be doing themselves is dictated through the federal government. The states get away with it by giving money to the states for doing things the way the federal government wants things done. That needs to change because the federal government has nothing done nothing but dig us in a hole for over 50 years.

[donovan]

The states will get back their constitutional provisions when Boise goes to the National Championship....