The Ten Commandments

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billybud
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Re: The Ten Commandments

Postby billybud » Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:00 pm

Unless you ignore the history, you have to be aware that christians have a dark and messy history of killing those who don't share their beliefs....

You may not know..or choose to ignore, that the Holocaust had its roots in Martin Luther. In 1543, Martin Luther wrote "On the Jews and Their Lies", a treatise in which he advocated harsh persecution of the Jewish people, what are now called pogroms. He argued that their synagogues and schools be set on fire, their prayer books destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes razed, and property and money confiscated. In fact, the Nazi horror's birth cries were Martin Luther's antisemitism. Kristallnacht, the opening curtain of the holocaust, was certainly an event that Martin Luther would have applauded since it followed his teaching.

Christians over a thousand years, have systematically killed and persecuted jews and others. Antisemitism has been rife. There is no question about that among educated people. The following are historic examples of jews being killed by christian peoples.

....During the 11th century crusades, there were wide scale pogroms against jews in France and Germany, jews were also massacred in York and London.

....Of course, Muslims were despised as well. Just listen to the words of Pope Urban II in 1095 that launched the crusade...I exhort you with earnest prayer - not I, but God - that, as heralds of Christ, you urge men by frequent exhortation, men of all ranks, knights as well as foot soldiers, rich as well as poor, to hasten to exterminate this vile race from the lands of your brethren Christ commands it. And if those who set out thither should lose their lives on the way by land, or in crossing the sea, or in fighting the pagans, their sins shall be remitted. Oh what a disgrace, if a race so despised, base, and the instrument of demons, should so overcome a people endowed with faith in the all-powerful God, and resplendent with the name of Christ.

....when the Crusaders did take Jerusalem, the inhabitants of the city were massacred, muslim and jew...some 60,000 by estimate.

.... In 1348, in a hysteria blaming jews for the plague, jews were massacred in what is now Germany (Chillon, Basle, Stuttgart, Ulm, Speyer, Dresden, Strasbourg, and Mainz).

....1n 1492, Spain expelled its jews (estimated around 200,000).

....In 1543, Martin Luther wrote "On the Jews and Their Lies", a treatise in which he advocated harsh persecution of the Jewish people, what are now called pogroms. He argued that their synagogues and schools be set on fire, their prayer books destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes razed, and property and money confiscated. In fact, the Nazi horror's birth cries were Martin Luther's antisemitism.

....jews were massacred in Russia 1648-1654 and pogroms continued there right into the 1900's.

....governments purposefully incited pogroms, killing jews by spreading rumors. Such as jews drank the blood of babies. In modern times it continues...the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" is a current propaganda piece used to seed fraudulent theories of an international jewish conspiracy.

...and on and on.

Shalom.
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Re: The Ten Commandments

Postby billybud » Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:11 pm

Being a christian does not confer a moral right. Although history tells us that certainly that was a view often taken. But we have always been immersed in tribalism.

It was American christians who gave blankets infected with small pox to indian heathens with the hope that it would annihilate whole tribes (sound Nazi-ish to you?).

It was American christians who imported and kept slaves. It was christians who demanded that society be segregated.

Yes, christians have acted like Nazi's at times...the difference is one of scale.
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Re: The Ten Commandments

Postby Dossenator » Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:24 pm

Mr. Billybud...it's a fine line we all walk on. It is dangerous making generalizations about groups and making comparisons like: Christians are like Nazi's. I am a Christian and don't feel like I am anything like a Nazi. In fact, in my short life I have never come across a Christian that I would confuse for a Nazi. Your statements sound as if you have a strong dislike of those who believe in God. How is that any different then calling someone a heathen....you might not have a fancy word for it like heathen...but it is the same thing.
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Re: The Ten Commandments

Postby Dossenator » Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:39 pm

Mr. Billybud...when I made my last post you had not made your last two posts. I don't believe because I am a Christian that I am better then anyone else, and it does not mean that I in any way condone slavery, the killing of Jews, the massacre of Muslims, the attempt to arradicate Native Americans, etc. Money, gold, land, water, oil, power, the color of ones skin, etc have also caused men to attach and kill one another throughout history. I can also lists many good things that Christians have done to better others lives. Again, it is dangerous to lump all of one group together and say "THEY" are like this, or "THEY" or like that.
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Re: The Ten Commandments

Postby billybud » Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:42 pm

I have no strong dislike of folks who believe in god...that is your reading through your "filters".

.....I am a rational realist who tries to see what is there, not color it because of my race, religion, or national state.

I am only pointing out that we have for 10,000 years acted as tribalists...and being a christian is being a member of a tribe. And members of tribes are invested and often see their tribe with distorted lenses.

If I criticize...I don't like people who believe in god. Proof positive of the correctness of my thinking.

Edit (posted before I read your last post)
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Re: The Ten Commandments

Postby billybud » Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:53 pm

And goodnight...

leaving you with a phrase my father's father used to say....he was kind of an old world guy.

A man comes from the dust and in the dust he will end--and in the meantime it is good to drink a sip of vodka.
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Re: The Ten Commandments

Postby Dossenator » Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:05 pm

There is nothing wrong being a part of a group (or tribe). It is human nature. We are all a part of groups whether we like to be or not. I know you are married and have at least one son that you have spoke about on the board. That is one of your tribe. Your also a Florida State fan...another tribe. You are also an American citizen. That's a pretty big tribe. I am sure if you felt like your tribe had been wronged you would stand up for your tribe. Again that is human nature. I am not trying to dispute history....horrible things have happened in the name of God (and they were flat out wrong).

We all have filters. Our past experiences shade the way we see the world and others. You too have some kind of a value system and that value system (whether you like to admit it or not) does color how you see things.

My personal experience with Christianity and church has been a positive one...and I can tell you that the churches I have been involved with over the years have done much more good then bad. There's nothing wrong with having a close knit social group that supports one another, helps the community, and reaches out to help those in need all over the world.
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Re: The Ten Commandments

Postby WoVeU » Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:58 pm

One of the, if not the chief problem of the human condition....people of like minds gather together in some form of solidarity (those not so solidified are often placed in training of some form.) Then it seems it is highly probable that those like minded people start not liking the mind set of other people.

Show me a group and I think I can find an instance of this. I really did some checking once on Buddhist Monks, thinking I'd find an exception...I didn't.

I like/liked much of the older Native American ways (don't know a great deal, but even less on modern culture)...turns out many of the tribes didn't have a great deal of affinity for other tribes back in the day. As a whole I still think most acted with more honor and character even in ill pursuits for a declared enemy.

Then you ought to go back and look at the Mayans, Incans, and Aztecs. (The Mayans were a real piece of work.) Not just religion, just culture and grouping of any sort drives many evil acts. Egyptians, Persians, Roman, Greek, Mongols, Ottomans, and on. If you are a human you are flawed, if you are an organized group of humans...you get the best cumulative and the worst cumulative effect, you get the blue chip flaws then. As a collective we humans do much better in smaller collectives...when our group extends past our physical ability to know and love (personally) all the people in it...the ties that bind start getting frayed!

We haven't gotten much and likely no better. Then I think of Nukes, and all the bad press those warheads have gotten...how many lives have they saved (weird thought I know)? I'd think we'd have been through World War IV or V by now. I think the chief problem in all of this is the hierarchy effects of groups. People rise to lead...and look what that leads to, more power hunger and more want to invoke your will still further. And this is often done as the leaded sets back in his comfort zone! Hello Nuclear Warheads...goodbye comfort zone! For my entire life war was there waiting at the push of the button...it is hard to imagine in a historical look that the button hasn't been pushed. The only thing I can think of, you push that button and 1) It is your alpha-5-5 too. and/or 2) There is no winner. (Don't get me wrong, I wish there were no nukes.)

I think it just boils down to some form of greed and the fear of other people who do things different than you do. As long as everybody's way ain't yours, there is a very apparent chance that your way ain't the only way, might not be the best way, and thus...everything you believe in might be wrong! (Religiously, Philosophically, Politically, the whole 9.) Let's also remember Religion gets blamed more for by gone violence (and that can be readily seen). But let's also remember that societies were much more if not totally organized by religion. Now we are more apt to blame politics and overall culture as countries built around 1 religion have become less ubiquitous...but where they are...the Middle East, Jews and Muslims, it still gets blamed. And no matter how I look at it...a Jew, Muslim, Christian, Hindu, or Buddhist raining violence on other peoples...are all going against their religion. Usually it gets down to the 3rd Grade...well he started it!
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Re: The Ten Commandments

Postby donovan » Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:37 pm

Religious bigotry and intolerance comes from somewhere. We do not need to look outside of the USA to see it and no religion seems to be exempt. I think from the standpoint of social anthropologists, Mr. Billybud's comment are generally accepted. What drives us crazy is most forms of religion espouse some from of the "Golden Rule" and being kind, etc. and yet there is a part that finds it hard to practice what is preached.

The colonies were formed on the base of intolerance. I think history calls it the Age of Intolerance. We may have improved, but it takes very little for the dragon to raise its head.
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Re: The Ten Commandments

Postby Spence » Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:38 pm

donovan wrote:Religious bigotry and intolerance comes from somewhere. We do not need to look outside of the USA to see it and no religion seems to be exempt. I think from the standpoint of social anthropologists, Mr. Billybud's comment are generally accepted. What drives us crazy is most forms of religion espouse some from of the "Golden Rule" and being kind, etc. and yet there is a part that finds it hard to practice what is preached.

The colonies were formed on the base of intolerance. I think history calls it the Age of Intolerance. We may have improved, but it takes very little for the dragon to raise its head.


There is lots of intolerance in religion and other groups and always has been. I am a christian in that I believe Christ was the savior. I have been to lots of different churches, but I don't belong to one, because I generally don't conform to the politics. I believe that I am responsible for me and my family. I live my life in a way I believe is right. I don't find it any of my business how others live their live as long as they don't impact me. If I ever find a church that believes in that idea, I will stay.

The idea is to live a good life. Treat people well and do the right thing because it is the right thing, not because someone is looking. Pray to be able to keep it up. I think when people get into the business of telling you what god wants, they step off the ledge. Everyone knows when they are doing something wrong. They don't need someone to spell it out for them. I believe in god. If I turn out to be wrong, I see no downside. If I am right, big upside.
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Re: The Ten Commandments

Postby Dossenator » Wed Apr 22, 2009 4:56 pm

Spence wrote:
donovan wrote:Religious bigotry and intolerance comes from somewhere. We do not need to look outside of the USA to see it and no religion seems to be exempt. I think from the standpoint of social anthropologists, Mr. Billybud's comment are generally accepted. What drives us crazy is most forms of religion espouse some from of the "Golden Rule" and being kind, etc. and yet there is a part that finds it hard to practice what is preached.

The colonies were formed on the base of intolerance. I think history calls it the Age of Intolerance. We may have improved, but it takes very little for the dragon to raise its head.


There is lots of intolerance in religion and other groups and always has been. I am a christian in that I believe Christ was the savior. I have been to lots of different churches, but I don't belong to one, because I generally don't conform to the politics. I believe that I am responsible for me and my family. I live my life in a way I believe is right. I don't find it any of my business how others live their live as long as they don't impact me. If I ever find a church that believes in that idea, I will stay.

The idea is to live a good life. Treat people well and do the right thing because it is the right thing, not because someone is looking. Pray to be able to keep it up. I think when people get into the business of telling you what god wants, they step off the ledge. Everyone knows when they are doing something wrong. They don't need someone to spell it out for them. I believe in god. If I turn out to be wrong, I see no downside. If I am right, big upside.


I agree with you Spence. There is a big difference in Religion and one's own faith or belief. I too am not a member of a church at the moment. I do not like the politics, etc that come with it. I do attend church from time to time, and always feel better for doing so. I too am a Christian because I believe Christ is our Saviour.

On a side note...I attended a very large church in Northwest Arkansas (I was the band director for their private school). The church raises millions of dollars every year and puts it right back into the community and all over the world...they go all over the world and help set up communities with water and sewage systems, homes, and churches, help local families (especially those with children) with food, clothing, gifts at Christmas time, gives out untold amounts of food (especially around the holidays), help women who have been abused, and the list can go on and on. The point I am trying to make is that religion is not the root of all things evil.
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Re: The Ten Commandments

Postby donovan » Wed Apr 22, 2009 5:32 pm

Just so I am clear on my position. I do not believe religion is the root of all evil. I think it has the potential to be the solution to mankind's problems. It is my belief it it the only real solution. That does not mean that Mr. Billybud is wrong in his observations.
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Re: The Ten Commandments

Postby billybud » Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:14 pm

My observations only incidentally have to do with religion. They really have to do with our natural distrust of "others", our tribalism. Religion is just a manifestation of that tribalism. Folks just like to fixate on religion because it is something that they feel strongly about and that they understand.

Over the last 100,000 years as man has evolved, it became important for us to rapidly recognize someone as "same" or "other". Being able to recognize a member of a hunting party that you run into in the forest as a clan member or as a member of a rival group, actually meant life or death. Humans have evolved to be born with exceptional face recognition abilities and we quickly notice sameness or "otherness" of race or ethnicity. When you first meet a new co-worker, you become immediately aware of his race or ethnicity. After time, that awareness recedes as you begin to incorporate knowledge of him as a person.

Tribalism is hard wired into the human race. We are essentially a race of clans. Just as we lived in small family clans 10,000 years ago, we live in clans now. Super clans. Nations are super clans that still function much the way clans did eons ago. They provide protection, a sense of commonality and community. Religion functions as a clan of sorts as well (some may say sub clan).
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Re: The Ten Commandments

Postby WoVeU » Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:30 pm

Dossenator wrote:On a side note...I attended a very large church in Northwest Arkansas (I was the band director for their private school). The church raises millions of dollars every year and puts it right back into the community and all over the world...they go all over the world and help set up communities with water and sewage systems, homes, and churches, help local families (especially those with children) with food, clothing, gifts at Christmas time, gives out untold amounts of food (especially around the holidays), help women who have been abused, and the list can go on and on. The point I am trying to make is that religion is not the root of all things evil.


You wouldn't happen to be referring to Gravette, Ark would you?
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Re: The Ten Commandments

Postby WoVeU » Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:33 pm

billybud wrote:Over the last 100,000 years as man has evolved, it became important for us to rapidly recognize someone as "same" or "other". Being able to recognize a member of a hunting party that you run into in the forest as a clan member or as a member of a rival group, actually meant life or death. Humans have evolved to be born with exceptional face recognition abilities and we quickly notice sameness or "otherness" of race or ethnicity. When you first meet a new co-worker, you become immediately aware of his race or ethnicity. After time, that awareness recedes as you begin to incorporate knowledge of him as a person.


Zackly! Much has been built on to the recognition of friend of foe defense system!
Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves.
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
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