The Ten Commandments

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donovan
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Re: The Ten Commandments

Postby donovan » Sun Apr 26, 2009 9:06 pm

The idea that one's religion is correct is not a surprise. If you did not think it was correct, you would leave. True of many organizations. (I quit being a vocal Republican because they no longer represented what I believe...there is no party out there that fits that bill..by the way and I am perfectly comfortable where I am at.) The same is true about a person's faith.

I agree with Billybud, when anyone for any reason, religious, politcally, socially, economcally, etc, believes they are morally superior to another, trouble is in the wind.

If you did a brief study of most all religions of every type, they will have some form of the Golden Rule as part of their creed. Live by that and frankly, a lot of issue go away. But we do not. So the key, in my thought, is shape up and start acting like we profess.
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Re: The Ten Commandments

Postby billybud » Sun Apr 26, 2009 9:19 pm

WoVeU..

You bet that you are trained. Geneva Convention standards, US Code of Military Justice (UCMJ)...and finally, Rules of Engagement.

But..it doesn't take training to know that raping young girls, bayonetting old men, and lining up civilians in a ditch and murdering them is wrong.

We sort of slapped wrists on it, though...only one man served time (only three years) for the murder of hundreds of Vietnamese civilians.
“If short hair and good manners won football games, Army and Navy would play for the national championship every year.”

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Re: The Ten Commandments

Postby WoVeU » Sun Apr 26, 2009 9:45 pm

donovan wrote:The idea that one's religion is correct is not a surprise. If you did not think it was correct, you would leave. True of many organizations. (I quit being a vocal Republican because they no longer represented what I believe...there is no party out there that fits that bill..by the way and I am perfectly comfortable where I am at.) The same is true about a person's faith.

I agree with Billybud, when anyone for any reason, religious, politcally, socially, economcally, etc, believes they are morally superior to another, trouble is in the wind.

If you did a brief study of most all religions of every type, they will have some form of the Golden Rule as part of their creed. Live by that and frankly, a lot of issue go away. But we do not. So the key, in my thought, is shape up and start acting like we profess.


I started to post the same comment. If you didn't think you religion of practice didn't have something better you'd be shopping for a new one...others even choose to create.

I think everybody should do some shopping. Then they would at least find other religions had 96% of the same "dos and don'ts". Then you run less risk of elevating things to an authority level. But I think it is some of the content outside of moral code that attracts a person to a religion. I like Christianity because (not that you have all been dying to know)

1) The story from Genesis to Eternity, there is a full story and characters for example (that is very big for me)
2) Genesis itself, the beginning
3) The miracles of the prophets
4) The failures of the prophets and patriarchs
5) The life of Christ, his miracles, and his forgiveness
6) Christ paying a debt, I could not pay
7) God and Christ love failures, failures even like me, and he has great Mercy

None of those reasons are based on law and commandment. And 6 and 7 are really important to me. I noticed as a very young kid one immutable human condition that I found almost haunting...humans knowing better yet doing so anyway then wishing they hadn't, but not looking apologize or asking forgiveness or truly being repentant...something just short often times.

Further, I recall as a very young child "feeling God" (I don't think I was even 3 and no way was I older than 4) in nature, in the sun, the air, and the trees and plants. Oh, and the wind...man their was something about the wind. Not just nature in all of its glory but it had a voice of sort. And secondly, there was very clearly a voice from within. That was very important later, when I got to looking around it kind of help me narrow down things and really look at religions for how they commanded a respect and a responsibility to the Earth itself, with man having a shaky dominion over it but being very subject to it. (That is a good deal closer to the moral code portion of it.)
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Re: The Ten Commandments

Postby WoVeU » Sun Apr 26, 2009 9:52 pm

billybud wrote:WoVeU..

You bet that you are trained. Geneva Convention standards, US Code of Military Justice (UCMJ)...and finally, Rules of Engagement.

But..it doesn't take training to know that raping young girls, bayonetting old men, and lining up civilians in a ditch and murdering them is wrong.

We sort of slapped wrists on it, though...only one man served time (only three years) for the murder of hundreds of Vietnamese civilians.


Yeah I knew you had those. I had them, they didn't want me assaulting that C-141b. Haaa!

I mean, did the DI's have the where with all to inform kids that there are situations that can arise where all the rules and fear of punishment won't stop you from screwing up royal. That it would take something deeper that you have to keep their yourself...it would take that to keep you humane and maybe even sane.

I had a guy tell me similarly, I knew it might not ever apply for an Air Force kid but I really liked the cut of is jib and the haunting nature and great grandpa delivery he had in it! I got a feeling he was in it waste deep at some point...and he saw some (Hell, maybe even him) who didn't stand and deliver, the right way! I knew even by 18, I had gotten into things that the fear of the rules didn't get it done!
Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves.
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
R. Reagan

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Re: The Ten Commandments

Postby billybud » Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:15 am

No...our DI's didn't really cover that.

The Corps has a way of instilling discipline (overall discipline). My unit (Force Recon) depended on utmost discipline while running 8 man recon missions out in the boondocks. Their object was to locate the NVA without them finding you. The Marine Recon units had the highest casualty ratio of any Marine unit because if they did run into a NVA unit, the Marines were desperately outnumbered.

We did have brief ethics discussions in training. What do you do if?

What do you do if, while out on a deep patrol, you are discovered by a young boy coming to draw water from a stream? If you let him go and he tells the bad guys where you are, the lives of the patrol may be forfeit. (A Seal Team in Afghanistan was lost in similar circumstances when a shepherd boy discovered them).

We are Americans and Marines. We risk our lives before we kill a noncombatant in cold blood. The answer is leave the boy and di di mau.

The Seals made that same decision in Afghanistan, the Taliban came after them and the team fought against insurmountable odds to the end. One survivor managed to slip away to tell the story.
“If short hair and good manners won football games, Army and Navy would play for the national championship every year.”

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Re: The Ten Commandments

Postby billybud » Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:22 am

http://www.pritzkermilitarylibrary.org/ ... ttrell.jsp

I've read the book. The actions taken make me proud to be an American. Rules of engagement were followed even at the ultimate cost.

These guys fought like tigers...The Lt. had to venture out onto unsheltered ground to get a clear signal to call in for help. Already wounded in the stomach, he sat in a hail of fire and called in. Hit twice back through chest, he dropped the hand set, picked it up and finished the call with a "Roger that, thank you sir"...than died.
“If short hair and good manners won football games, Army and Navy would play for the national championship every year.”

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Re: The Ten Commandments

Postby WoVeU » Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:10 pm

I appreciate your service BB, you can believe that! All combat jobs deserve special thanks...especially one like yours.

I know the USAF job that is most dangerous is Combat Controller, they are dropped into set-up an LZ. And I've heard some stories there (and that ain't as bad as your job.) Any time you are out on a point of initial intercept of any kind when the point of the job comes up (the goal) many more things can go wrong than go right. It has to be hard when the goal of your job gets you waste deep in crap.

And the kids finding you...every time I've seen that in movies I think of how it would be nice to have some kind of sugar based rope and humane gag. To let you stay undiscovered and the kids sweat would melt the rope in 12 hours (or whatever) then he would even have some candy! I guess some would say hat wasn't acceptable either.
Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves.
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
R. Reagan

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Re: The Ten Commandments

Postby billybud » Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:23 pm

My jump school class at Ft. Benning (recon Marines were jump trained by Army at Benning) had USAF Para Rescue guys...they went in on the Jolly Greens.
“If short hair and good manners won football games, Army and Navy would play for the national championship every year.”

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Re: The Ten Commandments

Postby WoVeU » Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:32 pm

billybud wrote:My jump school class at Ft. Benning (recon Marines were jump trained by Army at Benning) had USAF Para Rescue guys...they went in on the Jolly Greens.


I really wanted to do PJ (Para Rescue) because they got to do so much. But I was told if I didn't pass any phase, including because of injury, I would no longer have my guaranteed job (electronic technician.) Those guys got to jump, repel, dive, and everything on top of like 30+ weeks of EMT training. I liked watching them running with the big poles and all that jazz at Lackland!
Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves.
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
R. Reagan

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Re: The Ten Commandments

Postby Spence » Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:42 am

WoVeU wrote:
billybud wrote:My jump school class at Ft. Benning (recon Marines were jump trained by Army at Benning) had USAF Para Rescue guys...they went in on the Jolly Greens.


I really wanted to do PJ (Para Rescue) because they got to do so much. But I was told if I didn't pass any phase, including because of injury, I would no longer have my guaranteed job (electronic technician.) Those guys got to jump, repel, dive, and everything on top of like 30+ weeks of EMT training. I liked watching them running with the big poles and all that jazz at Lackland!


My cousin busted his knee jumping, all he got was a discharge. He had planned on a career in the Marines, but it didn't work out.
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

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Re: The Ten Commandments

Postby WoVeU » Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:47 am

Injuries can happen easy in all the normal physical training. Then the Marines take it a bit further, then the Special Forces take it a bit further still (but really, they mostly just do it longer, but that increases the odds).

I made the right decision. I could have been really good at anything, just because I don't accept sub par. But honestly, I was the best ET I have ever seen. It is my thing. I'm just glad I got to do my thing, many don't ever find that. And I a m not sure I'd be an Electrical Engineer now if I hadn't stayed on that path.
Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves.
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
R. Reagan


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