Where is the line drawn.

A place to talk about anything. Stocks, politics, or your neighbors who won't turn down that music.
Forum rules
NOTICE: Please be sure to check the CFP Message Board Rules and Regulations and the Read Me page before posting.
User avatar
donovan
Athletic Director
Athletic Director
Posts: 7960
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:41 am
Location: Pacific Northwest

Where is the line drawn.

Postby donovan » Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:46 am

As I age, like cheese, with a certain amount of mold, I find it increasingly difficult to separate one part of an institution from another. I do not believe any organization in our society is there yet, but somehow this one should come out of the fifties. Let 'them win you a National Football Championship" but heaven forbid you would socialize on an equal basis.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-News-Wires/2013/0921/U-of-Alabama-ends-whites-only-sororities
“Never let a problem to be solved, become more important than a person to be loved."

User avatar
Spence
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 18983
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:52 pm
Location: Chillicothe, Ohio (Ohio's First Capital)
Contact:

Re: Where is the line drawn.

Postby Spence » Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:58 am

I would have thought this would have ended 40 years ago. I am not for all any race anything. I am for individuals being judged on only their merits.
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

User avatar
Dossenator
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 5137
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:00 pm
Location: Back in NW Arkansas!!!!
Contact:

Re: Where is the line drawn.

Postby Dossenator » Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:43 pm

I would bet that most schools have black only fraternities. Silly to seperate people based on the color of skin....I will never understand.
"A team with something to play for is dangerous, but a team with someone to play for is unstoppable..." Arkansas OL Brey Cook quote following the death of teammate Garrett Uekman (Nov. 2011).

User avatar
Spence
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 18983
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:52 pm
Location: Chillicothe, Ohio (Ohio's First Capital)
Contact:

Re: Where is the line drawn.

Postby Spence » Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:50 pm

Dossenator wrote:I would bet that most schools have black only fraternities. Silly to seperate people based on the color of skin....I will never understand.


And that is wrong two.
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

billybud
Athletic Director
Athletic Director
Posts: 9791
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2006 12:25 pm

Re: Where is the line drawn.

Postby billybud » Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:11 am

Having Historic Black Colleges and Universities, black fraternities, black entertainer awards, black chamber of commerces, black business associations, etc...is treasuring a cultural heritage and promoting self help and networking.

Minorities may be exclusive in support of heritage or race and majorities may not be exclusive.

It is a conundrum.
Some light is so intense that it can only be experienced as darkness

User avatar
Spence
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 18983
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:52 pm
Location: Chillicothe, Ohio (Ohio's First Capital)
Contact:

Re: Where is the line drawn.

Postby Spence » Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:36 am

billybud wrote:Having Historic Black Colleges and Universities, black fraternities, black entertainer awards, black chamber of commerces, black business associations, etc...is treasuring a cultural heritage and promoting self help and networking.

Minorities may be exclusive in support of heritage or race and majorities may not be exclusive.

It is a conundrum.


There isn't a problem with minority fraternities supporting minority causes. Just not being exclusive in membership. If a white guy wanted to be in a group that supports whatever minority cause, he should not be denied because of his skin color. The reverse should also be true. There was a time when "separate but equal" was the law of the land that black only groups were needed to gain equal footing. Today is a different time. It is time to get over it.
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

Duke1632
All-American
All-American
Posts: 126
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 7:15 pm
Location: Port Angeles, WA

Re: Where is the line drawn.

Postby Duke1632 » Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:01 am

Spence wrote:
billybud wrote:Having Historic Black Colleges and Universities, black fraternities, black entertainer awards, black chamber of commerces, black business associations, etc...is treasuring a cultural heritage and promoting self help and networking.

Minorities may be exclusive in support of heritage or race and majorities may not be exclusive.

It is a conundrum.


There isn't a problem with minority fraternities supporting minority causes. Just not being exclusive in membership. If a white guy wanted to be in a group that supports whatever minority cause, he should not be denied because of his skin color. The reverse should also be true. There was a time when "separate but equal" was the law of the land that black only groups were needed to gain equal footing. Today is a different time. It is time to get over it.


Clearly the most important first question to ask is are we talking about private groups or so-called public ones? Yet that distinction has not been mentioned at all, and I'm not too sure about these frats at the University. Individuals all have rights of free association--meaning they may form any type of group they choose and allow or forbid membership to anyone for any reason whatever. If membership conditions are viewed as overtly racist (or just silly), then most people will decline invitations, and therefore all voluntary group associations must internalize such foolishness. It is only for so-called "public" groups, that is groups that are subsidized by so-called public money that are forbidden by the Constitution to maintain race-based membership conditions. Remember, the Bill of Rights only applies to govt actors, not to private actors. I have every right to abridge your speech if you are on my property, but govt actors cannot (legally) do so if you are on public property.
The athletic team of my geographic region is superior to the team from your geographic region.

User avatar
Derek
Athletic Director
Athletic Director
Posts: 5432
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2005 2:04 am
Location: Brooks, GA
Contact:

Re: Where is the line drawn.

Postby Derek » Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:44 pm

Duke1632 wrote:
Spence wrote:
billybud wrote:Having Historic Black Colleges and Universities, black fraternities, black entertainer awards, black chamber of commerces, black business associations, etc...is treasuring a cultural heritage and promoting self help and networking.

Minorities may be exclusive in support of heritage or race and majorities may not be exclusive.

It is a conundrum.


There isn't a problem with minority fraternities supporting minority causes. Just not being exclusive in membership. If a white guy wanted to be in a group that supports whatever minority cause, he should not be denied because of his skin color. The reverse should also be true. There was a time when "separate but equal" was the law of the land that black only groups were needed to gain equal footing. Today is a different time. It is time to get over it.


Clearly the most important first question to ask is are we talking about private groups or so-called public ones? Yet that distinction has not been mentioned at all, and I'm not too sure about these frats at the University. Individuals all have rights of free association--meaning they may form any type of group they choose and allow or forbid membership to anyone for any reason whatever. If membership conditions are viewed as overtly racist (or just silly), then most people will decline invitations, and therefore all voluntary group associations must internalize such foolishness. It is only for so-called "public" groups, that is groups that are subsidized by so-called public money that are forbidden by the Constitution to maintain race-based membership conditions. Remember, the Bill of Rights only applies to govt actors, not to private actors. I have every right to abridge your speech if you are on my property, but govt actors cannot (legally) do so if you are on public property.


VERY valid points!!

Welcome to the board Duke!
They’re either going to run the ball here or their going to pass it.

The fewer rules a coach has, the fewer rules there are for players to break.

- John Madden

User avatar
Spence
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 18983
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:52 pm
Location: Chillicothe, Ohio (Ohio's First Capital)
Contact:

Re: Where is the line drawn.

Postby Spence » Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:12 pm

Duke1632 wrote:
Spence wrote:
billybud wrote:Having Historic Black Colleges and Universities, black fraternities, black entertainer awards, black chamber of commerces, black business associations, etc...is treasuring a cultural heritage and promoting self help and networking.

Minorities may be exclusive in support of heritage or race and majorities may not be exclusive.

It is a conundrum.


There isn't a problem with minority fraternities supporting minority causes. Just not being exclusive in membership. If a white guy wanted to be in a group that supports whatever minority cause, he should not be denied because of his skin color. The reverse should also be true. There was a time when "separate but equal" was the law of the land that black only groups were needed to gain equal footing. Today is a different time. It is time to get over it.


Clearly the most important first question to ask is are we talking about private groups or so-called public ones? Yet that distinction has not been mentioned at all, and I'm not too sure about these frats at the University. Individuals all have rights of free association--meaning they may form any type of group they choose and allow or forbid membership to anyone for any reason whatever. If membership conditions are viewed as overtly racist (or just silly), then most people will decline invitations, and therefore all voluntary group associations must internalize such foolishness. It is only for so-called "public" groups, that is groups that are subsidized by so-called public money that are forbidden by the Constitution to maintain race-based membership conditions. Remember, the Bill of Rights only applies to govt actors, not to private actors. I have every right to abridge your speech if you are on my property, but govt actors cannot (legally) do so if you are on public property.


Legally you are right. I just don't see the point of a group put together because of race. I get religon, political and social groups. This is America and at this point in our history there are very few people who don't have ancestors from at least two different races so the groups are very likey not even true to themselves.


And yes, welcome to CFP. We are a small, but vocal bunch.
And yes, welcome to CFP. We are a small band, but a hearty one.
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

User avatar
donovan
Athletic Director
Athletic Director
Posts: 7960
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:41 am
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Where is the line drawn.

Postby donovan » Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:42 pm

Welcome Duke....The problem is, there are few private universities that do not take government money in one form or another. It becomes a moot point.
Other than Hillsdale and Grove City, Patrick Henry College, Christendom and Pensacola Christian College, I could find no others that to not take goverment funds in one way or another. I am only familiar with Hillsdale.
“Never let a problem to be solved, become more important than a person to be loved."

Duke1632
All-American
All-American
Posts: 126
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 7:15 pm
Location: Port Angeles, WA

Re: Where is the line drawn.

Postby Duke1632 » Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:48 am

Spence wrote:Legally you are right. I just don't see the point of a group put together because of race. I get religon, political and social groups. This is America and at this point in our history there are very few people who don't have ancestors from at least two different races so the groups are very likey not even true to themselves.


And yes, welcome to CFP. We are a small, but vocal bunch.
And yes, welcome to CFP. We are a small band, but a hearty one.


Again, thank you for the welcome. I appreciate small, but vocal--it suits me, so I look forward to getting to know you all with CFB as a backdrop. I'm with you, I do not see any value in forming a group based on race, as such is virtually guaranteed to be inefficient and therefore detrimental to whatever goals that group might have. That said, no individual (or group) needs our approval to exercise rights of association. Although certainly distasteful to most, being "racist" is not a crime, and neither should it be as that would be tantamount to a "thought crime"--something that has been rejected since ancient times. The good news is that voluntary associations, like all other voluntary transactions must internalize their own mistakes, so a free market will very quickly weed out or minimize the reach of any such group.
The athletic team of my geographic region is superior to the team from your geographic region.

Duke1632
All-American
All-American
Posts: 126
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 7:15 pm
Location: Port Angeles, WA

Re: Where is the line drawn.

Postby Duke1632 » Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:52 am

donovan wrote:Welcome Duke....The problem is, there are few private universities that do not take government money in one form or another. It becomes a moot point.
Other than Hillsdale and Grove City, Patrick Henry College, Christendom and Pensacola Christian College, I could find no others that to not take goverment funds in one way or another. I am only familiar with Hillsdale.


No doubt, one would be hard pressed to find a university that does not take public money (tough to compete without that). But here we are not talking about universities, but rather fraternities that operate at a university and for which membership is voluntary. Do the frats receive public dollars? Probably not.
The athletic team of my geographic region is superior to the team from your geographic region.

User avatar
Spence
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 18983
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:52 pm
Location: Chillicothe, Ohio (Ohio's First Capital)
Contact:

Re: Where is the line drawn.

Postby Spence » Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:08 pm

Duke1632 wrote:
Spence wrote:Legally you are right. I just don't see the point of a group put together because of race. I get religon, political and social groups. This is America and at this point in our history there are very few people who don't have ancestors from at least two different races so the groups are very likey not even true to themselves.


And yes, welcome to CFP. We are a small, but vocal bunch.
And yes, welcome to CFP. We are a small band, but a hearty one.


Again, thank you for the welcome. I appreciate small, but vocal--it suits me, so I look forward to getting to know you all with CFB as a backdrop. I'm with you, I do not see any value in forming a group based on race, as such is virtually guaranteed to be inefficient and therefore detrimental to whatever goals that group might have. That said, no individual (or group) needs our approval to exercise rights of association. Although certainly distasteful to most, being "racist" is not a crime, and neither should it be as that would be tantamount to a "thought crime"--something that has been rejected since ancient times. The good news is that voluntary associations, like all other voluntary transactions must internalize their own mistakes, so a free market will very quickly weed out or minimize the reach of any such group.


Oh I agree completely that we should get rid of the PC stuff and let people live their lives. I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of the situation.
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

Duke1632
All-American
All-American
Posts: 126
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 7:15 pm
Location: Port Angeles, WA

Re: Where is the line drawn.

Postby Duke1632 » Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:31 pm

Spence wrote:
Duke1632 wrote:
Spence wrote:Legally you are right. I just don't see the point of a group put together because of race. I get religon, political and social groups. This is America and at this point in our history there are very few people who don't have ancestors from at least two different races so the groups are very likey not even true to themselves.


And yes, welcome to CFP. We are a small, but vocal bunch.
And yes, welcome to CFP. We are a small band, but a hearty one.


Again, thank you for the welcome. I appreciate small, but vocal--it suits me, so I look forward to getting to know you all with CFB as a backdrop. I'm with you, I do not see any value in forming a group based on race, as such is virtually guaranteed to be inefficient and therefore detrimental to whatever goals that group might have. That said, no individual (or group) needs our approval to exercise rights of association. Although certainly distasteful to most, being "racist" is not a crime, and neither should it be as that would be tantamount to a "thought crime"--something that has been rejected since ancient times. The good news is that voluntary associations, like all other voluntary transactions must internalize their own mistakes, so a free market will very quickly weed out or minimize the reach of any such group.


Oh I agree completely that we should get rid of the PC stuff and let people live their lives. I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of the situation.


And so I think we agree on the answer to donovan's original question of "where is the line drawn." That line is properly drawn between private (e.g., voluntary) and public (e.g., coerced). Private actors can voluntarily form any group they choose, and we are free to join or refrain from joining or even advocate or oppose those groups according to our own views. Public actors have many constraints, most of which have been determined over the years, for better or worse, by unelected, life-tenured govt lawyers.
The athletic team of my geographic region is superior to the team from your geographic region.

User avatar
Spence
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 18983
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:52 pm
Location: Chillicothe, Ohio (Ohio's First Capital)
Contact:

Re: Where is the line drawn.

Postby Spence » Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:44 pm

Yes, the public ones only have constraints based on the public purse strings, though. The problem is that the public purse strings are attached to so many things now. Most here agree on most things, sometimes we argue anyway. :lol:
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain


Return to “Off-Topic”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest