Anybody See Where.....

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donovan
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Re: Anybody See Where.....

Postby donovan » Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:54 pm

You can not obfuscate the issue by begging the question. North Dakota was never and is not now in the mix. UCF is. Should they be in the grand arena., no, because they shouldn't be in the mix, nor Boise State and about 60 other schools? You rant about scheduling because it allows you to use the weaker schools as fodder and then praise the virtue of your records because you are in the figment of the belief that that the SEC ACC and Republican Party are ad hoc to the trinity.
"No, no!" said the Queen. "Sentence first–verdict afterward."
"Stuff and nonsense!" said Alice "The idea of having the sentence first!"
"Hold your tongue!" said the Queen, turning purple.
"I won't!" said Alice.
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Re: Anybody See Where.....

Postby Mountainman » Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:00 pm

Mountainman wrote:

Understood...... and during my recent amateurish, inept and sanctimonious effort to unravel the current structure and direction of College Football in order to develop a more definable and efficient way of selecting the participants using an ‘on the field’ determination of a ‘National Champion’ I have concluded....... either the brilliance or the stupidity or somewhere in between, of the money-changers, profiteers and those who govern College Football has created a structure and environment that such effort, without their commitment to a massive restructuring, is futile in that either an unequal number of games or subjectivity would be unavoidable.



Remember this??? My infamous reply to our esteemed colleague...... which you pronounced ‘Donovan Speak’
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is.

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Re: Anybody See Where.....

Postby Cane from the Bend » Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:03 pm

---
billybud wrote:There you have it..."who did you play?"

There is no way a team "can win its way to the title" in football if they play a weak, weak schedule. Nor should there be IMHO>



Interesting ... or not so much.

Who you play, I guess. Who you beat, absolutely.

In a metric where you add the two together
Top 3 Strength of Records in 2018:

#1 Clemson
#2 Alabama
#3 Notre Dame

Next 3 in order:

#4 Oklahoma
#5 Georgia
#6 Ohio State

________________________________________________________________________

Strength of Record with FCS Opponents & Games Lost being removed:

Clemson: 12 wins - Opponent Total Records: 76-56 | 83-62 [after CCG win]
Alabama: 12 wins - Opponent Total Records: 69-63 | 80-65 [after CCG win]
Notre Dame: 12 wins - Opponent Total Records: 75-70 [no CCG]
Oklahoma: 12 wins - Opponent Total Records: 65-69 | 74-70 [after CCG win]
Georgia: 10 wins - Opponent Total Records: 69-50 [after CCG loss]
Ohio State: 12 wins - Opponent Total Records: 61-71 | 69-76 [after CCG win]

Had Georgia won the SEC Championship, they would be 12-1, with an 82-50 Strength of Record, which would have put them at #2 behind Clemson, and bumped Alabama to #4 ahead of Oklahoma.

Even removing 10 win Georgia's 2 Losses and FCS opponent from this metric, they maintain their #5 record ahead of 12 win Ohio State --- even had the Buckeyes finished undefeated, they would move up one to #5 on this list, with an Opponent Total Record of; 66-78 | 74-83 --- as by beating Purdue, the Boilermakers record would have been 5-7.

Ohio State's regular season record would have been better than Oklahoma's, but their final record post Conference Championship would tie Oklahoma's in wins, yet have a +13 in opponent losses.

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Cane... [__]

"It is only impossible until it has been accomplished." ... then it becomes standardized ... and then it becomes regulation ...

Success is measured by results; whereas Character is measured through the means by which one achieves those results . . .

It seems the Rapture did come for one worthy soul:
In Memory of Grandpa Howdy

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Re: Anybody See Where.....

Postby Cane from the Bend » Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:21 pm

billybud wrote:Football's playoff includes the 12-13 games of the regular season...


If there were any legitimacy in this comment, then losing teams would not play forward into the regular season.

A playoff is, you lose, you're out.

Yes, there are double elimination tournaments in sports. But even those have guidelines as to winning vs losing. In this case, when winning 11 games while losing 2 puts you ahead of a 12-0 team, then your entire ideology falls apart.

And you call others Conspiracy Nuts, all while drinking that tall cool glass of Flavor Aid.

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Cane... [__]

"It is only impossible until it has been accomplished." ... then it becomes standardized ... and then it becomes regulation ...

Success is measured by results; whereas Character is measured through the means by which one achieves those results . . .

It seems the Rapture did come for one worthy soul:
In Memory of Grandpa Howdy

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Re: Anybody See Where.....

Postby Mountainman » Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:26 pm

Cane from the Bend wrote:---
billybud wrote:There you have it..."who did you play?"

There is no way a team "can win its way to the title" in football if they play a weak, weak schedule. Nor should there be IMHO>



Interesting ... or not so much.

Who you play, I guess. Who you beat, absolutely.

In a metric where you add the two together
Top 3 Strength of Records in 2018:

#1 Clemson
#2 Alabama
#3 Notre Dame

Next 3 in order:

#4 Oklahoma
#5 Georgia
#6 Ohio State

________________________________________________________________________

Strength of Record with FCS Opponents & Games Lost being removed:

Clemson: 12 wins - Opponent Total Records: 76-56 | 83-62 [after CCG win]
Alabama: 12 wins - Opponent Total Records: 69-63 | 80-65 [after CCG win]
Notre Dame: 12 wins - Opponent Total Records: 75-70 [no CCG]
Oklahoma: 12 wins - Opponent Total Records: 65-69 | 74-70 [after CCG win]
Georgia: 10 wins - Opponent Total Records: 69-50 [after CCG loss]
Ohio State: 12 wins - Opponent Total Records: 61-71 | 69-76 [after CCG win]

Had Georgia won the SEC Championship, they would be 12-1, with an 82-50 Strength of Record, which would have put them at #2 behind Clemson, and bumped Alabama to #4 ahead of Oklahoma.

Even removing 10 win Georgia's 2 Losses and FCS opponent from this metric, they maintain their #5 record ahead of 12 win Ohio State --- even had the Buckeyes finished undefeated, they would move to #4 on this list, with an Opponent Total Record of; 66-78 | 74-83 --- as by beating Purdue, the Boilermakers record would have been 5-7.

Ohio State's regular season record would have been better than Oklahoma's, but their final record post Conference Championship would tie Oklahoma's in wins, yet have a +13 in opponent losses.

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That begs the question of what else did the Committee consider that resulted in Alabama being ranked #1 in this season’s playoff........ and as for ‘who you play’ mattering, those W-L records in the SOR can be inflated by playing a Group of 5 opponent who plays in a weak conference and has a good record against weak opponents.

.......to answer my own question after thinking about it, Bama May be behind Clemson because of the FCS opponent they played..... just a thought.
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is.

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Re: Anybody See Where.....

Postby donovan » Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:18 pm

As I am thinking of taking a snooze, it seems to be that when this discussion began in 2006, even before for many of you, I am the only one that has changed my position when presented with the facts!!!!!

And with that, I shall chortle as I board the sleepytime express.
"No, no!" said the Queen. "Sentence first–verdict afterward."
"Stuff and nonsense!" said Alice "The idea of having the sentence first!"
"Hold your tongue!" said the Queen, turning purple.
"I won't!" said Alice.
"Off with her head!" the Queen shouted at the top of her voice."

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Re: Anybody See Where.....

Postby Cane from the Bend » Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:49 pm

donovan wrote:As I am thinking of taking a snooze, it seems to be that when this discussion began in 2006, even before for many of you, I am the only one that has changed my position when presented with the facts!!!!!

And with that, I shall chortle as I board the sleepytime express.


What are you saying..?

Don't you know, there's almost a Bowl Game being played.?.

I mean, South Florida just pulled within 18 before halftime.


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.
.
Cane... [__]

"It is only impossible until it has been accomplished." ... then it becomes standardized ... and then it becomes regulation ...

Success is measured by results; whereas Character is measured through the means by which one achieves those results . . .

It seems the Rapture did come for one worthy soul:
In Memory of Grandpa Howdy

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Cane from the Bend
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Re: Anybody See Where.....

Postby Cane from the Bend » Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:57 pm

Mountainman wrote:
Cane from the Bend wrote:
billybud wrote:There you have it..."who did you play?"

There is no way a team "can win its way to the title" in football if they play a weak, weak schedule. Nor should there be IMHO>



Interesting ... or not so much.

Who you play, I guess. Who you beat, absolutely.

In a metric where you add the two together
Top 3 Strength of Records in 2018:

#1 Clemson
#2 Alabama
#3 Notre Dame

Next 3 in order:

#4 Oklahoma
#5 Georgia
#6 Ohio State

________________________________________________________________________

Strength of Record with FCS Opponents & Games Lost being removed:

Clemson: 12 wins - Opponent Total Records: 76-56 | 83-62 [after CCG win]
Alabama: 12 wins - Opponent Total Records: 69-63 | 80-65 [after CCG win]
Notre Dame: 12 wins - Opponent Total Records: 75-70 [no CCG]
Oklahoma: 12 wins - Opponent Total Records: 65-69 | 74-70 [after CCG win]
Georgia: 10 wins - Opponent Total Records: 69-50 [after CCG loss]
Ohio State: 12 wins - Opponent Total Records: 61-71 | 69-76 [after CCG win]

Had Georgia won the SEC Championship, they would be 12-1, with an 82-50 Strength of Record, which would have put them at #2 behind Clemson, and bumped Alabama to #4 ahead of Oklahoma.

Even removing 10 win Georgia's 2 Losses and FCS opponent from this metric, they maintain their #5 record ahead of 12 win Ohio State --- even had the Buckeyes finished undefeated, they would move to #4 on this list, with an Opponent Total Record of; 66-78 | 74-83 --- as by beating Purdue, the Boilermakers record would have been 5-7.

Ohio State's regular season record would have been better than Oklahoma's, but their final record post Conference Championship would tie Oklahoma's in wins, yet have a +13 in opponent losses.


That begs the question of what else did the Committee consider that resulted in Alabama being ranked #1 in this season’s playoff........ and as for ‘who you play’ mattering, those W-L records in the SOR can be inflated by playing a Group of 5 opponent who plays in a weak conference and has a good record against weak opponents.

.......to answer my own question after thinking about it, Bama May be behind Clemson because of the FCS opponent they played..... just a thought.


This dynamic includes FCS opponents of both Alabama & Clemson.

Clemson played Furman 6-4
Alabama played Citadel 5-6

Which is reflected by their Records being reduced to 12 wins in the aforementioned Data Values.

.
.
.
Cane... [__]

"It is only impossible until it has been accomplished." ... then it becomes standardized ... and then it becomes regulation ...

Success is measured by results; whereas Character is measured through the means by which one achieves those results . . .

It seems the Rapture did come for one worthy soul:
In Memory of Grandpa Howdy

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Re: Anybody See Where.....

Postby Spence » Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:05 pm

billybud wrote:Sure Vegas makes money on betting....

But you have to be a mainline conspiracy nut to think that Vegas has bloody horseheads appearing in the beds of the 11 CFP Committee members....or influences these decisions.

I don't think that folks like the Oklahoma AD, the Florida AD, the Robert Morris President, the Chair, the Oregon AD...and other members give two toots what Vegas makes money on.

That's just more hand wringing....

They do care about the FBS...and may eventually spread the playoff just to appease those programs further down the power curve.

Just like no team not in a current power basketball conference (counting the Big East as a equivalent in basketball to a P5)...except UConn coming out of the BE, has won a National Championship..... except UNLV over 40 seasons ago. But we all are thrilled that a couple of games may be won by the Cinderellas, thus blinding the masses to the fact that sitting at the table isn't partaking of the meal.


I don't believe that Vegas has any direct influence on the games or who is selected. They don't have to, they just need people to bet. They don't even care who they bet on. As to the point of who should be sitting at the table, I'm not sure I really care. I would like the process to be completely objective with everyone having a clear path to the end, but people who hold the basketball tournament up as an example shouldn't. The basketball tournament is controlled by a committee as well. They just allow enough people in the door to make them think they have a chance. NCAA basketball is the fundraising arm of the NCAA. The NCAA will sanction football. They are over football, but they don't make money on football. But Basketball, they protect the basketball powers with all of their power. North Carolina got caught doing as much wrong as any academic institution could possibly do wrong. The NCAA's reasoning for not sanctioning them, there were so many violations that no one person could possibly be responsible -----really ---- so no one gets in trouble? The NCAA generates nearly all of their over one billion in funding from the NCAA basketball tournament. North Carolina is one of their primary cogs that keep the wheels turning.

I don't think Football should expand at all if they aren't going to a tournament of champions,,,,, and that is never going to happen. 4 is probably too many. Players are starting to realize that the bowl games don't matter. The more that realize that the faster the bowls go away.
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

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Re: Anybody See Where.....

Postby Spence » Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:15 pm

Cane from the Bend wrote:
Mountainman wrote:
Cane from the Bend wrote:
billybud wrote:There you have it..."who did you play?"

There is no way a team "can win its way to the title" in football if they play a weak, weak schedule. Nor should there be IMHO>



Interesting ... or not so much.

Who you play, I guess. Who you beat, absolutely.

In a metric where you add the two together
Top 3 Strength of Records in 2018:

#1 Clemson
#2 Alabama
#3 Notre Dame

Next 3 in order:

#4 Oklahoma
#5 Georgia
#6 Ohio State

________________________________________________________________________

Strength of Record with FCS Opponents & Games Lost being removed:

Clemson: 12 wins - Opponent Total Records: 76-56 | 83-62 [after CCG win]
Alabama: 12 wins - Opponent Total Records: 69-63 | 80-65 [after CCG win]
Notre Dame: 12 wins - Opponent Total Records: 75-70 [no CCG]
Oklahoma: 12 wins - Opponent Total Records: 65-69 | 74-70 [after CCG win]
Georgia: 10 wins - Opponent Total Records: 69-50 [after CCG loss]
Ohio State: 12 wins - Opponent Total Records: 61-71 | 69-76 [after CCG win]

Had Georgia won the SEC Championship, they would be 12-1, with an 82-50 Strength of Record, which would have put them at #2 behind Clemson, and bumped Alabama to #4 ahead of Oklahoma.

Even removing 10 win Georgia's 2 Losses and FCS opponent from this metric, they maintain their #5 record ahead of 12 win Ohio State --- even had the Buckeyes finished undefeated, they would move to #4 on this list, with an Opponent Total Record of; 66-78 | 74-83 --- as by beating Purdue, the Boilermakers record would have been 5-7.

Ohio State's regular season record would have been better than Oklahoma's, but their final record post Conference Championship would tie Oklahoma's in wins, yet have a +13 in opponent losses.


That begs the question of what else did the Committee consider that resulted in Alabama being ranked #1 in this season’s playoff........ and as for ‘who you play’ mattering, those W-L records in the SOR can be inflated by playing a Group of 5 opponent who plays in a weak conference and has a good record against weak opponents.

.......to answer my own question after thinking about it, Bama May be behind Clemson because of the FCS opponent they played..... just a thought.


This dynamic includes FCS opponents of both Alabama & Clemson.

Clemson played Furman 6-4
Alabama played Citadel 5-6

Which is reflected by their Records being reduced to 12 wins in the aforementioned Data Values.

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Records -- who you play --- who they play--- none of that really matters. Who you are is what matters. If you win, no matter who you play and your name is Ohio State, Alabama, Notre Dame, Michigan, Florida State, Texas, Oklahoma, West Virginia, USC, Nebraska, UCLA, Florida, Georgia, or LSU; you are going to go. Clemson is good now, they get temporary access as has Washington, Oregon, Wisconsin, Michigan State, Auburn, NC State have all had temporary access in the past. Teams like UCF and others don't have access. UCF could have traded places with Notre Dame this year. Notre Dame playing UCF's schedule and vice versa and Notre Dame playing UCF's schedule and being undefeated would still be going. ---And no it isn't a conspiracy. It is just a fact of life.
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

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Re: Anybody See Where.....

Postby Mountainman » Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:17 pm

Didn’t know Clemson played an FCS School....... geeeeez, appears that the #1 and #2 highest ranked teams in the CFP got some time-off during the season.

Kinda reminds me of back in the day when the Romans scheduled the Lions against the Christians....... :roll:
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Re: Anybody See Where.....

Postby Spence » Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:27 pm

Mountainman wrote:Didn’t know Clemson played an FCS School....... geeeeez, appears that the #1 and #2 highest ranked teams in the CFP got some time-off during the season.

Kinda reminds me of back in the day when the Romans scheduled the Lions against the Christians....... :roll:


They are just using the Notre Dame model and then telling everyone how tough their schedule they play while having a couple weeks to get ready for every tough game. Big cushions in between. It works.
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

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Re: Anybody See Where.....

Postby billybud » Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:04 am

Cane...

The regular season does have the utmost impact on who is national champion..it is foolish to pretend otherwise...Lose two games in season and you have eliminated yourself. The elimination process is quick and brutal...especially compared to basketball. Lose one game, like Ohio State and you can be out.

We can all pretend that football is like basketball where the regular season is only incidentally important for making the playoff...for the ACC, with 9 teams making the NCAA cut...the regular season has nothing like the weight of a 12 game football season.
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Re: Anybody See Where.....

Postby Mountainman » Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:10 am

Spence wrote:
Mountainman wrote:Didn’t know Clemson played an FCS School....... geeeeez, appears that the #1 and #2 highest ranked teams in the CFP got some time-off during the season.

Kinda reminds me of back in the day when the Romans scheduled the Lions against the Christians....... :roll:


They are just using the Notre Dame model and then telling everyone how tough their schedule they play while having a couple weeks to get ready for every tough game. Big cushions in between. It works.



Like I said about knowing which end of the cow is which...... fix the regular season scheduling and the “Playoff” at the other end will take care of itself.
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is.

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Re: Anybody See Where.....

Postby billybud » Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:15 am

Spence wrote:
Mountainman wrote:Didn’t know Clemson played an FCS School....... geeeeez, appears that the #1 and #2 highest ranked teams in the CFP got some time-off during the season.

Kinda reminds me of back in the day when the Romans scheduled the Lions against the Christians....... :roll:


They are just using the Notre Dame model and then telling everyone how tough their schedule they play while having a couple weeks to get ready for every tough game. Big cushions in between. It works.


Yeah..I know...Clemson also had a lay in game against Ohio State (31-0) in the playoff...so sometimes you get an easy game and a rest.
“If short hair and good manners won football games, Army and Navy would play for the national championship every year.”


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