The Culture War&Football..don't read if musing irritates

[billybud]

I have been pondering the Miami/FIU affair and it raised some thoughts that are both on and off the topic.

How we perceive an event and our viewpoint is a function of our vantage point. And our vantage point is the culture by which our values derive.

I recently took a trip to the hometown that I left over three decades ago...A Coming Home. I stopped at some old familiar places and looked at scenes that were utterly unchanged, yet I am completely different. Coming home brought a complicated mix of emotions...Do I like who I am? Do I miss who I was? Am I still changing? Will, if I come back in 10 years, feel like a wholly different person?

I grew up in the segregated south, went to school when black football players played primarily at Grambling, Howard, FAMU, and the like. My values are primarily those traditional values of the eurocentric white America that dominated the era.

At FSU in the late 60's and early 70's, our cheerleaders cheered, they didn't hoochie-coochie, players didn't dance in celebration, our team was very white and Vince Lombardi was the role model.

America's culture today is not so neatly homogenized. Black urban culture is different from my traditionalism and is highly visible, particularly in sports. The traditional eurocentric value emphasizes that it is about team, and sublimates the individual. Black urban culture celebrates the individual. Traditional culture requires modesty in athletes. The culture deriving from black urban culture requires personal flash and showboating (which we abhorred).

This culture difference has changed the nature of some sports...pro basketball is now much more of an individual one on one game derived from street court play than was the game back in the day when whites dominated the sport (we had the short-shorts thing wrong, for sure).

When I and my generation review the antics of young athletes, we tend to snort in disapproval. Teams like Miami recruit heavily from the black urban environment...the kids are mouthy, wear do rags, flash gold teeth, show off, and display all the signs of not sharing our Lombardiesque sports culture. They act like street punks, not like our image of athletes.

Heck..looking at the old film of the primarily white USC/ND 1971 brawl...the kids today don't even brawl like we did in the day...where is the pushing back and forth and half hearted effort to be a stand up guy? Now it is an intent to maul the other guy.

I believe that Miami has always been a thorn in the side of those who have traditional values because of their non-compliance with our cultural standard. It's a red flag in front of the bull. Miami is maybe, after Notre Dame, the most hated team in America...and I muse that much of the animosity is culture based.

It is no accident that so many urban kids and black kids from all over the US wear Miami colors and identify with the Canes...it is a recognition of shared culture.

We, in America today, are involved in a prolonged culture war... the traditional culture that dominated the era of my upbringing versus a new and sometimes threatening culture...

A new culture where Columbus is not celebrated as a great explorer but reviled as an exploiter, one where Christmas decorations may not be displayed in public buildings and "Happy Holidays" has replaced "Merry Christmas"....

Yes...I am put off by the antics of todays football players...be it Miami, T.O., or Randy Moss....I am of the old school and a product of my culture...Lynn Swan and Jerry Rice were my kind of guys.

Miami...thuggish? Yeah...particularly to the standards inherent in my cultural bias.

[Spence]

Cleveland and Columbus have urban cultures also. It was a problem when John Cooper was the coach and Ohio State fans blamed it on just that, the environment in which some of the players grew up. Tressel requires players to hand the ball off to the referee and get back to work. A lot of it has to do with what the coach will let slide and the ability of the team leaders (juniors and seniors) to convey that message to the younger guys. That is the problem with Miami. Coker can do some, but the player alumni and the team leaders are getting in the way. Thomas and his comments are a prime example. Ohio State is not without problems, but because the coach, team leaders, and player Alumni like Eddie George don't support it, we have less problems.

Florida State is much the same way. They aren't without their problems, but they don't support this stuff and they don't have the same level of problems.

Miami fans want to blame Coker and to some extent is he has to take it, but the former players and team leaders have to step up to change the image. The problem is they like the image so they don't want to change it.

[Eric]

Here's where I stand on this:

I'm not from your two's generation. I'm a little bit after you guys. I grew up in Flint, Michigan, a town that was once booming that has now dwindled into, , I don't want to get into it. Flint is a mess now anyway. It's pretty much the closest thing to Detroit that we have in Michigan.

I'm sure that we all have our biases, but toward this subject, I think I consider myself pretty even-leaning. I know we've had a discussion before on the state of Miami football, and it is pretty thuggish. And I don't care if it's a Miami player from da hood or a guy from Dartmouth who grew up as white-as-can-be playing hockey in New Hampshire. It doesn't matter. Columbia University just had some gigantic brawl, non-football related, that seemed pretty thuggish to me.

Miami...thuggish? Yeah...particularly to the standards inherent in my cultural bias.

Okay, I'm just going to ask a question: are you saying that the football players should be held to a different standard because of where they came from and what they think is right and wrong?

[billybud]

Nope...just saying that standards change over time...faster than we change.

When I was a young man, people did not live together if they were not married...if they did, they were trashy.

Most women were housewives and did not work..and those that did worked in "female" occupations as a teacher, nurse, or waitress.

Abortions were sinful, shameful, and more than that, illegal.

Is it now wrong for me to call folks trash if they live together without being married?

Is it wrong for me to say that women have no place in the workplace?

Is it wrong to call a kid a street punk because he raps, has gold teeth, and dances in the end zone?

[Eric]

Well, you know, some of those standards haven't changed. One is entitled to their opinion if they feel those ways you mentioned. But, just because one generation changes their "standards" it doesn't mean it's right.

[colorado_loves_football]

I have been pondering the Miami/FIU affair and it raised some thoughts that are both on and off the topic.

How we perceive an event and our viewpoint is a function of our vantage point. And our vantage point is the culture by which our values derive.

True, but a 'brawl' is a 'brawl' regardless of your vantage point.

I recently took a trip to the hometown that I left over three decades ago...A Coming Home. I stopped at some old familiar places and looked at scenes that were utterly unchanged, yet I am completely different. Coming home brought a complicated mix of emotions...Do I like who I am? Do I miss who I was? Am I still changing? Will, if I come back in 10 years, feel like a wholly different person?

I've been in the same community I was born in. I think it's changed moreso than I have, which isn't a good reflection on me. Each person 'progresses' at a different rate. We are a product, at least in part, of the circumstances we are born in. Be proud of your heritage.

I grew up in the segregated south, went to school when black football players played primarily at Grambling, Howard, FAMU, and the like. My values are primarily those traditional values of the eurocentric white America that dominated the era.

I grew up in a very poor area, but I believe some of the 'blessings' I've received were a direct result of that, believe it or not. I don't think there's anything wrong with desegregation. Segregation, I think promotes racial disharmony, but I have no problem with schools applying their own moral code. As far as those schools are concerned, they've assuredly given disadvantaged kids an education. And, that's the ultimate goal of any institution, that's worth it's salt. Anyone is allowed that opportunity.

At FSU in the late 60's and early 70's, our cheerleaders cheered, they didn't hoochie-coochie, players didn't dance in celebration, our team was very white and Vince Lombardi was the role model.

Cheerleading appears to have taken a 'broader' role than I recall, as a younger person (no pun intended). I enjoy it, but I wish it would be 'toned down' at least to the point it isn't detracting (as it is).

America's culture today is not so neatly homogenized. Black urban culture is different from my traditionalism and is highly visible, particularly in sports. The traditional eurocentric value emphasizes that it is about team, and sublimates the individual. Black urban culture celebrates the individual. Traditional culture requires modesty in athletes. The culture deriving from black urban culture requires personal flash and showboating (which we abhorred).

Unfortunately you can't have one without the other, in today's atletics. I think there's a place for the 'urban' athlete, provided they follow the rules. It's one reason I'm disappointed with how Miami, FL has handled the situation (basically they aren't going to do anything to address it).

This culture difference has changed the nature of some sports...pro basketball is now much more of an individual one on one game derived from street court play than was the game back in the day when whites dominated the sport (we had the short-shorts thing wrong, for sure).

The best athletes were white, in the '60s, as I recall. But that's changed substantially. Actually that's not all bad. There should be a place for the 'minority' athlete in every institution, provided they abide by the rules. It's not all their fault, if they aren't accepted within the community, they likely act inappropriately (I've witnessed it, before). As a society, I think we could do more to 'assist' them in that respect.

When I and my generation review the antics of young athletes, we tend to snort in disapproval. Teams like Miami recruit heavily from the black urban environment...the kids are mouthy, wear do rags, flash gold teeth, show off, and display all the signs of not sharing our Lombardiesque sports culture. They act like street punks, not like our image of athletes.

I dont' think anyone should 'condone' the actions of those who willingly disregard the rules. I think the NCAA could do a better job in applying necessary 'restraint' and where necessary, enforcing them. Fights happen, unfortunately, but I think 'stiffer' penalties could minimize their impact. Those 'kids' which is what they are, should be held accountable.

Heck..looking at the old film of the primarily white USC/ND 1971 brawl...the kids today don't even brawl like we did in the day...where is the pushing back and forth and half hearted effort to be a stand up guy? Now it is an intent to maul the other guy.

WEll, I can't really comment on that, fairly. Fights are fights, in my book. Those guys didn't do anything I haven't seen before, but the extent to which they participated, was unusual. I might have made one, or both schools forfeit the game. Neither team, deserved to win. One way to 'mitigate' it is to make it 'not worth it', in some fashion, for both.

I believe that Miami has always been a thorn in the side of those who have traditional values because of their non-compliance with our cultural standard. It's a red flag in front of the bull. Miami is maybe, after Notre Dame, the most hated team in America...and I muse that much of the animosity is culture based.

They may, in fact, be the 'most hated', but they are likely 'most admired' That's part of the problem. Most kids grow up idolizing the Miami Hurricanes (I did, to some degree). And they've been successful.

It is no accident that so many urban kids and black kids from all over the US wear Miami colors and identify with the Canes...it is a recognition of shared culture.

I guess the two go 'hand-in-hand'. Gangs want to be respected. So do football teams.

We, in America today, are involved in a prolonged culture war... the traditional culture that dominated the era of my upbringing versus a new and sometimes threatening culture...

I'ts pretty much the same war, as far as I'm concerned, but it's likely taken on a new 'face'. I think there's always been some 'division', along racial lines. Do you remember 'Black Power'? Or the "Black Panthers"?

A new culture where Columbus is not celebrated as a great explorer but reviled as an exploiter, one where Christmas decorations may not be displayed in public buildings and "Happy Holidays" has replaced "Merry Christmas"....

Columbus Day has been viewed, by some as a 'racist' holiday. I don't think so, but some do.
Where I live, the indigenous people made the local college 'change' from Indians to Grizzlies. La. Monroe is no longer the Indians, the Warriors.

Yes...I am put off by the antics of todays football players...be it Miami, T.O., or Randy Moss....I am of the old school and a product of my culture...Lynn Swan and Jerry Rice were my kind of guys.

I'm not against any athlete playing to his full potential, provided it's done in a 'modest' way, which it clearly isn't (Randy Moss). But, those two appear to be 'fading'. I think you'll see a different T.O. before long.

Miami...thuggish? Yeah...particularly to the standards inherent in my cultural bias.

Thuggish? Maybe. I thought they were worse under Dennis Erickson, but yeah, they aren't role models. Larry Coker was dealt a tough hand, IMO. But, the team does reflect the coach, to some measure. Colorado released Barnett for similar reasons.

[billybud]

Lubbock.....

I hope you feel the same way about Oklahoma's leading tackler...LB Rufus Alexander.

He was arrested after a confrontation with the police...he needs to be thrown off the team. He was charged with interfering with the police and disturbing the peace.

But of course you don't...and he is being "disciplined internally"...It's always the other guy that is bad.

[billybud]

NO...Rufus was arrested for interfering with an officer...you just repeated Rufus' claim...the cops arrested him becasue he was belligerent and disorderly.

And, you know what...sounds like Merriweather's excuse...he was coming to the aid of his friends and got caught up in the moment...

I think that being disorderly and interfering with law enforcement is much more serious than a football fight...

(and I admit my personal bias...my wife worked in law enforcement at one time).

[donovan]

Right is right and wrong is wrong and it does not matter the arena.

The idea that time and culture changes civility is on an excuse.

You want to make a statement of the right and wrong of the Miami FIU debacle. Then let the schools come out and say that neither school can be represented in post season play.

Only one problem with that. Money.

[billybud]

Right is right and wrong is wrong and it does not matter the arena.

That is very simplistic...and most of us like to believe in the simplicity of morality...that morality removed from time and place should remain constant.

But it just isn't that way....public consideration of morality is a prisoner of the culture of the time. It is actually a little overbearing to assume that morality as defined by our WASPish eurocentric western culture is the Miss Manners handbook for morality.

It is absolutely moral in parts of Papua to eat a fellow human. It was moral in China to abandon unwanted girl babies on mountainsides to die of exposure. It was moral in mesoamerica to sacrifice captives and cut out their hearts in a bloody spectacle.

But even in our dominant American culture, we can't be so smugly simplistic. What is now not right, once was considered right...Does "right" change? You bet.

It was a moral imperative for white America to seek its manifest destiny, even if that meant paying for the scalps of Indian men, women, and children, marching tribes out of the southeast in a death march to Oklahoma. It was right to deny African Americans liberty and property rights, it was right to deny women voting and property rights...and it was right for my father's generation to deliberately target civilians and firebomb 100,000 civilians to a fiery death in Dresden just as it was right for my generation to declare free fire zones and blast anything that moved.

Is it right to brawl? We say no. But we also view the action in our unique context....our sense of the "Queensbury Rules" .

Does race play a role? I think so. Our cultural preferences, music, food, and considerations of how one should act are very much effected by what race we happen to claim.

Its simple to say "right is right"..its just not supported by human history.

[billybud]

Don't think for a minute that the Nazi's, and before them a 1000 years of European christian pogroms, didn't have a justification for the periodic massacre of jewish peoples. Justification is only a another word for sophistication. Unsophisticated innocents like the Papuans truly do not know that they do wrong and see no need to justify their actions. Those who justify their evil know they do wrong and thus must provide a reason for ther activity. Justification and the knowledge of wrong walk hand in hand.

My son is the embodiment of the American experience...from my side he is the mixture of two streams...the northern european german and yiddish speaking peoples of my father who immigrated to America while not speaking English, and the southern Scotch-Irish immigrants of my mother's side who settled Alabama in the 1830's...My dad was a Jewish yankee boy who met my mother during WWII as he attended flight training in Alabama, where they fell in love. I admire my father and mother for standing up to their families and leaving their lives to make a life together although they came from different worlds. They made their own world and I love them for the courage that it took in their day to see it through.

From my wife's side...my son is the progeny of Irish-English pioneers who moved to the Texas frontier from Tennessee while the Comanche were still raiding. My boy's GG grandmother was a Comanche who left her tribal ways to make her life with a Irish rancher on the frontier of the Texas plains. While never "legally" married, the two lived a long life and raised five boys and three girls together. Her wisdom and courage is, I believe, still the backbone of my wife's family. Two people who did what was necessary in a hard scrabble time to get by. Again, two people from different worlds who made their own world.

We are a family of mixed origin and haplotypes...The wonder of the American mixed gene pool. My wife has blonde hair, blue eyes and high cheek bones while her brother looks like an indian or even Mexican with brown eyes, dark hair, high cheek bones and the inability to grow facial hair. My son has dark blue eyes, high cheek bones , very dark curly hair, my father's straight nose, and girls consider him handsome. He has the blessed Irish twinkle in his eye from my mom's side.

As a family with a mixed heritage, we celebrate different cultures...I am not jewish (the jewish faith is matriarchal and follows the mother and my mother was Southern Methodist) but I honor the faith of my father and his fathers before him. I am thoroughly southern and was taught to stalk, hunt and fish at an early age by my mother's father.

In America, a boy with German Jewish, Scotch-Irish, and Comanche blood lines is not unusual...in fact it is almost the usual. We are an entire country made up of peoples who have left cultures and lives to make a new world for themselves.

And now, I see others building their private world as more Cuban/American, Hispanic/white, black/white couples make their own world while carrying with them the culture of their parent's world.

I believe in love...and while I recognize that our ancestors were very pragmatic and made hard decisions based on what faced them in life...I also like to think that the power of love gave them the courage to build a new world for themself.

[Spence]

As a family with a mixed heritage, we celebrate different cultures...I am not jewish (the jewish faith is matriarchal and follows the mother and my mother was Southern Methodist) but I honor the faith of my father and his fathers before him. I am thoroughly southern and was taught to stalk, hunt and fish at an early age by my mother's father.

If I were a dog, I would be a mutt. It would be hard to find a racial bloodline that I don't owe some of my heritage. It really has never been an issue for me. More a source of strength then a weakness. I don't really care about race or pigment, but I do have a set of values concerning right and wrong and I follow them. In the end, though, I can only worry about what is best for me and my family. That is what is most important.

[Eric]

It would be ridiculous to assume that there is no such thing as right or wrong.

Okay, billybud, if the Europeans are so bad, why aren't these people? Sounds a little hypocritical to me.

[Spence]

Ethics change... morals not so much. Regardless... I pity a culture that accepts bashing a fellow human over the head with a football helmet ethical and says that by the moral code of the urban culture his action was justified. (and nobody provoked that guy either... he came rushing into a pile when he could have stayed on the sideline)

I agree. The Romans had this kind of "ethics" in their athletics and they didn't last. Assalt has no place in sports.

[mountainman]

My two cents worth:

Although the Miami/FIU incident of show-boating, trash-talking, smearing the kick-holder, fighting, helmet swinging, crutch swinging, stomping of downed players, lack of control by the coaching staffs, failure of the officials to control the game, talking heads shooting their mouths off about joining into the melee, etc, etc, were not appropriate or in the best interest of the game, what was even more disappointing and dangerous to the game was the response and behavior of Donna Shalala, the president of the University of Miami.