At risk of ****ing off everyone here, I say throw out the polls entirely (computer and human) and adopt a playoff format that involves the BCS.
Polls are too subjective, regardless of how they are done. Sure a computer doesn't 'favor' a team, but I find it interesting that even if Congrove is #6, and let's assume it's the best in terms of consistency, it's still a poor predictor of a team's performance, and I can tell you why.
I'ts probably a reliable indicator of how a team will perform based on past information, which I assume to include such things as head-to-head performance, and other variables which are constantly changing.
In essence, no computer can progam itself (at least I don't think they can) to play the game.
But I do believe they 'played' the Rose Bowl on a computer and USC beat Texas. Maybe they used the wrong computer, but I still think all a computer can do is make a fair estimate of how one team measures up, probably a reliable estimate, but an estimate regardless.
So, even though I am a proponent of computers, and their applications are limitless, they don't know what will happen with absolute certainty.
So, this is what I propose:
Adopt a playoff format that gives every conference a representative team, through a 'championship' bracket. At present there are 11 conferences, but a simple reorganization would provide a fairly simple way to select teams for a BCS 'championship', ten conference champions in all.
With the six already in place, it's a fairly simple matter of 'adding' two additional bowls prior to the four BCS bowls. I propose those two bowls be existing bowls, the Holiday and Liberty Bowls.
To demonstrate how this might work, simply consider the following:
Big Ten: two teams allowed to participate (Ohio State & Penn St.) one would be eliminated through a conference championship, the other coudl still qualify as an 'at large'.
Pac Ten: USC would qualify only if they won their conference championship, similarly the Big East needs a conference championship.
Notre Dame and W.Virginia could conceivably play in a Big East 'championship' the winner to get BCS 'bid'.
ACC, SEC, Big XII - already have conference championships.
That 'opens' up two 'at large' selection in the BCS.
A WAC-MWC 'championship' game could select a participant for two 'at large' (Holiday, Liberty) Bowls. MAC championship could select anohter.
C-USA could select another, so one 'at large' remains in play, regardless.
Here's how this might have played itself out, this year:
Big XII Champion: Texas - Fiesta Bowl
Big East Championship: Notre Dame vs. W.Virginia
SEC Champion: Georgia - Sugar Bowl
ACC Champion: Florida State - Orange Bowl
Big Ten Championship: Penn State vs. Ohio State (rematch time)
Pac Ten Championship: USC vs. Oregon (rematch time)
C-USA Champion: Tulsa
MAC Champion: Akron
MWC-WAC Championship: (Boise St. vs. TCU)
For argument's sake, lets' assume W. Virginia beats Notre Dame,
Similarly, let's assume Penn State beats Ohio State, and TCU beats Boise State. If 9 wins are required, Tulsa, and Akron are both eliminated (keeps the BCS competitive).
Now, with three 'at large' bids available, it's a fairly simple matter of selecting teams by rank, which should allow for Notre Dame, Ohio State, and Oregon to partipate, through BCS ranking.
The bowls are as follows:
Holiday Bowl: Ohio State vs. Oregon - winner receives 'at large' bid.
Liberty Bowl: TCU vs. Notre Dame - winner receives 'at large' bid.
If we further assume both Ohio State and Notre Dame are victorious, this will allow for the following pairings:
Rose Bowl: USC vs. Penn State
Fiesta Bowl: Texas vs. Notre Dame
Sugar Bowl: Georgia vs. W.Virginia
Orange Bowl: Florida State vs. Ohio State
Since we know how the BCS bowls have already been played, it's possible to make the following assumptions:
Rose Bowl: USC beats Penn State
Fiesta Bowl: Texas beats Notre Dame
Sugar Bowl: West Virginia beats Georgia
Orange Bowl: Ohio State beats Florida State
Semi-Finals: Texas Vs. USC, Texas wins
W.Virgnia beats OSU
BCS Championship: Texas beats W.Virginia
Does anyone see how this is a better arrangement (includes BCS poll) than what is being done at present?
Post-season Play-offs
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Spence
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I have neve been in favor of playoffs, but I would be OK if they happened. One thing you need to consider when coming out pro playoffs is that it would change the whole landscape with regards to recruiting.
Players now will choose teams based on the fact that they can play early and get on TV. If they go to playoffs players will gravitate to schools that have the best chance to make the playoff. If playoffs come about their will be no more bowl games other then playoff games. When the season ends in November 103 college football teams will be done. 16 teams will get to practice and play and get better, while 103 teams do nothing. That gives the teams that make it every year a major advantage in recruiting, practice time, and will make them better teams for the next season.
It would essentially negate the positive effect that the 85 scholly rule had on college football.
Players now will choose teams based on the fact that they can play early and get on TV. If they go to playoffs players will gravitate to schools that have the best chance to make the playoff. If playoffs come about their will be no more bowl games other then playoff games. When the season ends in November 103 college football teams will be done. 16 teams will get to practice and play and get better, while 103 teams do nothing. That gives the teams that make it every year a major advantage in recruiting, practice time, and will make them better teams for the next season.
It would essentially negate the positive effect that the 85 scholly rule had on college football.
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain
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Spence
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- Location: Chillicothe, Ohio (Ohio's First Capital)
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16 teams is a long way from 65. With 65 teams you have 100-120 teams with a chance to make the playoffs every year. With 16 teams you only have 25-30 teams that have a chance. Also basketball has extended organized practice times that football doesn't and probably can't have. Face it Basketball works with the same basic 4 of 5 plays. the football playbook is huge. The extra time the bowl season gives to bowl teams is an amazing help to coaches for the next season. Texas - USC were the only two bowl teams playing for this season. The rest were working on next season.
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain
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mountainman
Hey Lubbock,
I don't believe that it is a good comparison when one puts college basketball up against college football. The nature of the two games is so different.
Consider this if you will,
Take this weeks top two college basketball teams, Duke and Connecticut. For arguments sake, lets say both lose this coming week. What impact do you believe it would have as far as the NCAA basketball tournament is concerned.
Now take take the top two college football teams say in October, USC and Texas. Again, lets say both lose there games the second week in October. What impact would that have had on the BCS.
My point is that the NCAA basketball tournament brings a bunch of excitement for one month while college football brings a bunch of excitement for a whole season.
I don't believe that it is a good comparison when one puts college basketball up against college football. The nature of the two games is so different.
Consider this if you will,
Take this weeks top two college basketball teams, Duke and Connecticut. For arguments sake, lets say both lose this coming week. What impact do you believe it would have as far as the NCAA basketball tournament is concerned.
Now take take the top two college football teams say in October, USC and Texas. Again, lets say both lose there games the second week in October. What impact would that have had on the BCS.
My point is that the NCAA basketball tournament brings a bunch of excitement for one month while college football brings a bunch of excitement for a whole season.
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irish88
i'm all in favor of a playoff . . a 16 game playoff with no 1st round byes. just like the ncaa hoop tournament or the 1-AA football playoffs.
for those of you who follow 1-AA . hardly ever does the 1st seed win the championship . this year the University of New Hampshire and Hampton University were the top seeds. neither team even made it to the finals.
i doubt we'll see it in our lifetime.
for those of you who follow 1-AA . hardly ever does the 1st seed win the championship . this year the University of New Hampshire and Hampton University were the top seeds. neither team even made it to the finals.
i doubt we'll see it in our lifetime.
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mountainman
That really make's my point, irish88.
The folks who advocate a playoff say that D-1A will never have a true national champion unless that champion is decided on the field by way of a playoff.
Well, do you believe that Appalachian State is the best team in D-1AA or would it be more accurate to say that Appalachian State won the tournament?
Let me explain why I asked that question.
In 1985 I was in Philadelphia on business. The night before I watched as Villanova beat Georgetown (big upset) for the National Title in basketball. The next day we rearranged our meeting agenda in order to attend the 'parade' for the Wildcats. I stood among the thousands gathered where the parade came by City Hall. Amidst the cheers and celebration I had to ask myself if Villanova was the best team in college basketball or did they win the tournament. I'm taking nothing away from Appalachian State or Villanova ..... the point is, would a playoff produce what the playoff advocates say they want?
I don't deny that a playoff would lead to a clear-cut number one team, but I do not believe that playoffs would bring us any closer to determining who has the best team in college football.
The folks who advocate a playoff say that D-1A will never have a true national champion unless that champion is decided on the field by way of a playoff.
Well, do you believe that Appalachian State is the best team in D-1AA or would it be more accurate to say that Appalachian State won the tournament?
Let me explain why I asked that question.
In 1985 I was in Philadelphia on business. The night before I watched as Villanova beat Georgetown (big upset) for the National Title in basketball. The next day we rearranged our meeting agenda in order to attend the 'parade' for the Wildcats. I stood among the thousands gathered where the parade came by City Hall. Amidst the cheers and celebration I had to ask myself if Villanova was the best team in college basketball or did they win the tournament. I'm taking nothing away from Appalachian State or Villanova ..... the point is, would a playoff produce what the playoff advocates say they want?
I don't deny that a playoff would lead to a clear-cut number one team, but I do not believe that playoffs would bring us any closer to determining who has the best team in college football.
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Guest
mountainman wrote:... I don't deny that a playoff would lead to a clear-cut number one team, but I do not believe that playoffs would bring us any closer to determining who has the best team in college football.
But at the same time, shouldn't the true best team be able to perform under the pressure of a playoff. As it is right now, you can get lucky in only 1 game and win the national title (of course you have to get to that point first).
I think a team that can make it into and then through a playoff is the national champion and the best team. If a powerhouse team doesn't perform in a playoff game, they didn't deserve the championship and they weren't the best team.
As for the matter of regular season games not making a difference if there's a playoff system... the smaller number of teams that get into the playoff, the more the regular season matters. None of this Conference Contracting business... just the top 8 teams regardless of conference from a mutually elected poll, be it the BCS, CFP, or whatever. That way, regular season still matters because you have to fight to be in that top 8. Once you get in, you have to beat the other top teams to win the championship, if that doesn't produce the best team, I don't know what will. The key to it all is finding a poll that all parties agree upon and sticking with it, no changing it to fit certain people's preferences like the BCS has done.
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mountainman
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mountainman
Yep, Lubbock. I agree.
It's not the format that is the problem (e.g. bowls vs playoff) it's the selection process that needs some attention.
Like you were saying, a playoff would take care of the selection issues at the top of any selection process, but would only move the issue to the bottom of of the qualifier list by then creating the question of "Who's #8 or #16 or whatever. That's one of the problems that would not be corrected, just moved.
Something is amiss when the components of a selection process(the BCS), as it did this year, had a team (Notre Dame) ranked #5 by one poll (Harris Interactive), #6 by one poll (USA Today Coaches) and tied for #10 by the other poll (Computer Rankings).
It's not the format that is the problem (e.g. bowls vs playoff) it's the selection process that needs some attention.
Like you were saying, a playoff would take care of the selection issues at the top of any selection process, but would only move the issue to the bottom of of the qualifier list by then creating the question of "Who's #8 or #16 or whatever. That's one of the problems that would not be corrected, just moved.
Something is amiss when the components of a selection process(the BCS), as it did this year, had a team (Notre Dame) ranked #5 by one poll (Harris Interactive), #6 by one poll (USA Today Coaches) and tied for #10 by the other poll (Computer Rankings).
For the sake of saving people the trouble of trying to recompose previously-expressed thoughts, I brought this long chain over from the old message board. It was a GREAT discussion that deserves to be re-read and digested.
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Posted By: Spence
Posted On: Oct 30
Views: 237
Bowl System vs. Playoff
Would you rather keep the Bowl System and it's MNC as imperfect as it is or have a playoff to determine a true NC. Keep in mind that no more then 16 teams could possibly be involved and that the sites for the playoff games would have to be regional because they would have to be played close enough for fans of the lucky few who made it couldn't travel across country for several games.
Personally I like the bowl system. Playoffs might give you the low controversy national champion, but part of the fun of CFB is the argument over which teams or which conferences are the best.
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Posted By: bama_girl
Posted On: Oct 30
Views: 236
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
i'm for a playoff system but i don't like the idea of the best from each conference being the ones doing the playing off. there should still be some kind of vote involved to keep the crappy conferences from mucking it up.
what the hell am i saying? i'm too sleepy to be here right now.........night yall!
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Posted By: Spence
Posted On: Oct 30
Views: 231
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
Even if they take the top 8, number 9 is going to be ****ed.
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Posted By: rolltide
Posted On: Oct 31
Views: 223
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
take the top 8. if you cant get into the top 8 you suck anyway. Determine it on the field, no more politics.
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Posted By: Howdy
Posted On: Oct 31
Views: 217
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
I like the bowl system but I think they need to change the way they pick the teams for the BCS.
The AP polls I like to see come from sports media members of each comference and the voters rotate each year.
I say about two or three votes from each conf.
The way they do it now gives to many votes for the teams on the coasts.
But we all know they aren't going to listen to us.
So I guess we have to live with what we got now.
Howdy
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Posted By: mountainman
Posted On: Oct 31
Views: 216
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
Seems to me that the root cause of the problem, in the current set-up, is who or what group of whos is declaring the National Champion.
If the NCAA is going to have a National Champion in Division 1A football, within the current set-up of bowls, then the NCAA should be the one to declare that champion. Not the Harris Poll plus the Coaches Poll plus six other automated formulas. I mean, if the season had ended last week, the University of Texas would have been declaried National Champion by 7 ten-thousandths of 1 point. Good Grief!
The conference races supply the playoffs. That ought to satisfy the playoff advocates.
Keep the bowls, let the players and fans enjoy the game and the trip.
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Posted By: rolltide
Posted On: Oct 31
Views: 209
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
Mountainman, you have many good points. Keep the bowls, all that is fine for the Rutgers of the world, I agree that these teams and fans deserve the reward of a bowl game.
My problem is that the big teams that bring most of the money into college football are getting screwed for the little guys. There could be a nice compromise. all bowls stay for the teams that are not in the title hunt. however we could have the top 4 or 8 playoff so there is a true on the field champ. the team that gets left out of the playoffs may whine, but at least this way there will basically never be an undefeated team that doesn't get it's chance on the field. Prove it on the field.
Can you imagine the matchups in a playoff system? 4Bama v. 1USC ... 2Texas v. 3Va tech
Then the winners play each other.
Or if the gods of football really wanted to make this awesome we would get 8 teams and just imagine those matchups. The bowls would still be there for everyone else. This is a nice compromise in my eyes.
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Posted By: rolltide
Posted On: Oct 31
Views: 207
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
I realize that Alabama has been one of those teams that needed the regular bowls lately, but I still would want the playoff even if Vandy was my favorite team. Vandy could still have it's shot at a bowl when it has a good year, and at the same time USC and VA tech or whoever else was unbeaten or in the top 4/8 would get to settle it on the field. The first round could be the major 4 bowls, then there could be the championship rounds after that. it would only add 3 games.
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Posted By: mountainman
Posted On: Oct 31
Views: 206
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
The best of both worlds. Not bad. Good teams get rewarded while the best teams play for the title and decide it on the field.
I'll buy into it with the condition that there is an equitable way for determining which teams make up the final four that provides opportunity for all D-1A programs.
Congratulations, rolltide, a compromise where everyone would get some of what they want.
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Posted By: mountainman
Posted On: Oct 31
Views: 199
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
Just an after-thought .... take the top four teams, play the first two games to kickoff the bowl season, say around December the 15th or so, then the winners play for the National Championship on January 4th or so.
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Posted By: Spence
Posted On: Oct 31
Views: 191
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
I like the bowl system but I think they need to change the way they pick the teams for the BCS.
"The AP polls I like to see come from sports media members of each comference and the voters rotate each year.
I say about two or three votes from each conf.
The way they do it now gives to many votes for the teams on the coasts.
But we all know they aren't going to listen to us.
So I guess we have to live with what we got now."
I like this suggestion. The only problem I see here is that you would be voting for money you would be receiving if a team from your conference votes.
Rolltide, if they institute a playoff there wouldn't be enough money to support the other bowls. Playoff money would be huge. That is why the networks want playoffs. Less meaningless games, more money.
I wouldn't mind a plus one, something like Mountainman described. Play the 1-4, 2-3 match up a couple of weeks before Christmas and the championship game the day after New Year. The only problem I see with that is ticket sales to the first game would suffer. With most people opting to wait for the championship game to take the trip. Also the championship game could turn into something like the Super Bowl, where normal people couldn't get tickets if they tried.
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Posted By: rolltide
Posted On: Oct 31
Views: 190
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
Anything to get these undefeated teams a chance to settle it on the field. I am not sure Bama can make it through the rest of the schedule undefeated, but those who do definitly deserve a chance to play for the crown. And Rutgers with a winning record definitly deserves to go to a bowl. Trust me I love the bowls and tradition, I am an Alabama fan that still gets goose bumps when Bryant's voice plays on the loudspeakers. I am also for taking some of the corporate crap away from the bowls. Fiesta bowl is the Fiesta bowl, I refuse to call it the Tostitos Fiesta bowl or the Nokia Sugar bowl, etc.
If only they would let us run things. haha
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Posted By: rolltide
Posted On: Oct 31
Views: 188
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
Spence, that is fine with me, just no more Auburn's left out in the cold with a perfect record. And you guys know how much that hurt me to say that!!!
That would be like you dressing up in all maize and blue!
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Posted By: ...fanatic
Posted On: Oct 31
Views: 187
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
All these ideas simply screw the fans out of a few more thousand $$$$ to go see their team play football. If you keep the bowls in place fopr playoffs every game as at a neutral site so EVERYONE is coughing up big bucks to go to multiple games if their team keeps winning. Won't happen. Attendence in the opening rounds will be nothing. IF you're going to have a reasonable playoff format that is fair to the schools (travel expenses and time) and the fans (travel expenses and time) you have to have all but the title game played AT THE SCHOOLS. If you have 8 teams and you're one of the two that win-out you should be guaranteed 1 home game, 1 away game and 1 neutral game (the National Championship). Then, you have to find a geographically reasonable site to hold the NC game and GUARANTEE the schools more than a few thousand tickets. Geez, it would still be a ticket resellers windfall and a fan's screwjob.
The bowls won't allow themselves to be left out and all the other things that need to happen won't happen. If you're going to change the complete system, do it right or not at all. Compromise will leave everyone still jerk because the correct scenario still won't exist.
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Posted By: mountainman
Posted On: Oct 31
Views: 182
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
I congratulate my fellow posters. All ya'll are a pleasure to post with.
Good points have been raised that need consideration:
(all of equal importance)
1 - Players
2 - Prices
3 - Venues
4 - Traditions
5 - Correctiness
Did I leave any out? What do we need to add?
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Posted By: ....fanatic
Posted On: Oct 31
Views: 90
Hey Mountainman...
You and I got off to a rough start on another board but we've obviously gotten along fine since then. I just want to tell you that you impress me as a fair, reasonable and intellgent person. Happy to "know" you, even if your favorite team is mine's bitter enemy.
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Posted By: mountainman
Posted On: Oct 31
Views: 83
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
To borrow a quote:
"The mills of the gods grind slowly, but they grind exceedingly long"
I enjoy your perspective too, fanatic.
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Posted By: Spence
Posted On: Oct 31
Views: 83
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
Fanatic, you are right that if there were playoffs that they would have to be regional. I like the Bowl System just the way it is and I know this doesn't give you a true NC. There has never been a true NC anyway. The bowl system is a money maker for the schools. It is a good winter vacation for all of us northerners. It is a chance for 14 schools to end the season on a high note. It creates controversy so that in the off season guys like us have something to talk about.
By the way. If your boys handle Miami this week you will have earned the right to be included in championship game talk. Va. Tech - Miami is the game that tells the nation what they are made of and if Tech wins they deserve the same consideration as Texas. SC is the champ and unless they get knocked off I believe they have the right to defend.
rolltide, as long as there is the bowl system in place someone is going to be left out in the cold. That is why they call the football championship the "mythical national championship". I think it makes things more interesting. Not fair, but interesting.
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Posted By: Cyano
Posted On: Oct 31
Views: 79
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
A lot of good stuff has been said already which I agree with so Ill just give my brief opinion. I like the bowl system. When deciding a NC it would require the 1-4,2-3 matchup that was talked about previously. I also like the idea of the "semi" games played to start the bowls off and the final to be played at the end. Especially when you have major conference teams that are all undefeated, #3 and #4 need a shot.
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Posted By: mountianman
Posted On: Oct 31
Views: 76
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
That's pretty much the consensus here, Cyano.
There's a number of things that were offerred that make a whole lot of sense. Such as, letting #1 and #2 host the opening round. Treat it like a home game so the fans that support the team during the season can enjoy the teams success.
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Posted By: Larry
Posted On: Oct 31
Views: 70
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
Problem with Playoff system: determines which teams are best "before" the end of the season (bowls).
Playoffs cut short "teams that get stronger" (ability to improve and prepare for the end of the season).
Then there's the BIG FACTOR....Where are the above games played??? home/away/neutral??>?
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Posted By: Cane from the Bend
Posted On: Nov 1
Views: 53
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
Other than the top couple of schools being saticfied, what solution is offered by the playoff concept?
Spence, I do not share the same opinion as you do on the #1 until proven otherwise ideology.
No offense to anyone (especially to those usc fans who would be ready to jump down my throat for saying this).
USc won the national championship last season. That earned them the right to be ranked #1 at the end of last season.
In no way shape or form should that have any baring on how they are ranked this season.
The same argument could be made for the Heisman then.
Last year, Lienart was not the best player in "all" of College Football. He was on the best team in College Football.
If SC wins out, they may as well give Lienart the Heisman again, because it is the exact same logic as usc being #1 coming into the year.
College Football should be viewed on a season to season basis.
Once the smoke settles, a Champion (whether correctly chosen or not) is crowned.
When the next season begins, all teams from that division (we're talking Div-1A here) 119 teams are wiped to 0-offense/0-deffense/0-special teams.
At the beginning of a season, no team is better or worse than the next team, until the first games are played.
This is the reason why controversey exists, not because we don't have a playoff system.
===========================
As a matter of fact, we already do have a playoff system for Div-1A College Football.
Think of it.
If you end this year with 1 loss on your schedule, you, for the most part, eliminated yourselves from contention.
Isn't that what a playoff system is meant to do?
The big problem I have with the playoff idea, is the possibility of have a one or two loss team play and beat an undefeated team.
For example:
Let's say next year we only have two undefeated teams after 12 games (13 if a Conference championship is played).
Going by Rolltide's method (we'll entertain the 4 team option) if the #3 team has a (11-1) record, and the #4 team has a (10-2) record, should they be rewarded the opportunity to play the top two teams who finish the regular season unbeaten?
Unless your team wins 100% of their games, how fair is it to have them compete against a team who has done it all year long?
Regardless of how well they are playing at the season's end, a team shouldn't just get the poll approval.
That is where I believe people get confused.
It says to a team, "well you started off on the wrong foot, but since you finished strong, you get my vote".
That is called sending the wrong impression to a program.
And that doesn't serve justice to the team(s) who had started strong, and finished that way.
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Our problem is, we keep looking at things in the, "Who's #1" perspective.
Well, the truth is, when two teams enter into the national championship game, both being undefeated, the answer is simple.
Both teams are #1.
They are about to play for the national title. The winner is the clear #1 team. The loser is #2.
#2 does not go to the team who did not play in that game. Simply because, they did not play in that game.
What is screwing up the system so much, is the way the human polls release their first rankings before the BCS rankings come out.
It hasn't been the BCS to mess up the contenders. It's the human element.
Why was Auburn left out of the national Championship last year?
Well, where did the AP have the ranked in the preseason?
And once the Tigers finished undefeated, it was the same AP who cried foul.
Then they stuck their tails between their legs and ran like the imputant inferriors they are.
They knew it was their fault.
But to cover their tracks, they made you believe the BCS did it. And that the flawless AP would remove themselves from the BCS altogether. Besides, they didn't give the BCS the right to use their poll as a statistic in order to determine the official national rankings.
Bull!
If the AP had been left out of the equation in 1997, how much bloody hell and high water would they have been screaming then?
I'll say this.
Take out the preseason/preBCS polls, and you won't have as much clutter to deal with once the "Official" ratings are released.
===========================
My last passage I'll leave you with is this.
How can you improve upon something that already appeals to the masses?
Are we that oblivious to think we need to change the system to the extent of revamping the whole chronology?
Other than the media griping about a playoff system, where else does this idea come from?
Certainly not the fans.
If it did, then why have we continued to support the sport the way we have over the expanse of 60+ years?
Until the press puts the idea into your head that we need to fix things. You don't say a word.
Once the issue is on the table, you jump on it as though it is the last chicken leg at dinner, and you're not going to eat for three days.
How about asking yourself instead, why you consider this the best sport in the world.
How about asking yourself if you ever wanted the changes that have been made, to be made, only to still be unsaticfied with it.
What good does it do to change things, yet again, only to, again, be unsaticfied with it?
The changes made were supposed to make things simpler.
But it seems the more we change the rules, the more cunfused and disgruntled we become.
Cane...
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Posted By: rolltide
Posted On: Nov 1
Views: 48
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
Cane, the problem is when there is more than one undefeated team, that's all. As far as #1 playing #4 well, if #1 wants to stay #1, man up and win the game. Why should they be protected from a 1 or 2 loss team? if they are the better team they will suck it up and come away with the win. Playoffs are the only way that championships are settled on the field. Every sport has them besides college football (1A) and the only reason college football doesn't is money. They can keep the polls and the computers and let the teams play for the championship on the field. The tradition aspect is over. the bowls are not the same as they used to be, we cant get up on new years day and have 10 different scenarios where this or that team can win the championship or a share of the championship. Sadly those days are over. I say the 4 team playoff deserves a chance. We gave 50 computers averaged in some formula a chance. at least with playoffs the winner will have earned the crown for sure.
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Posted By: rolltide
Posted On: Nov 1
Views: 47
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
I am not trying to be a pain in the butt, it just makes more sense to me to have a playoff for at least the top 4. If Alabama were the only undefeated team, and they had to face a 2 loss Michigan in the #1 v. #4 scenario and Alabama loses, well I am not going to complain. Alabama was not the better team plain and simple. but we will never have an undefeated team at #3 left out because of human polls or computers. I think the system could even adapt. Say there are 5 undefeated teams, they should work out a bye for the #1 team or could have an 8 team playoff. I would rather tamper with a playoff format than a math formula every year.
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Posted By: mountainman
Posted On: Nov 1
Views: 45
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
I don't have time to go into this right now, but (there's that dang but) one might want to be mindful that this week's BCS rankings, without the Harris Poll and the Coaches Poll, only considering the 'Computer Poll' have the University of Texas ranked as #1, while the University of Southern California and Virginia Tech are ranked as tied for #2.
The whole is the sum of its parts, any of the three components of the current BCS system is subject to screwing up.
If we are going to have a National Champion, we need a better way for determining just which team that is. I'm not saying we've got it or we have come up with it, I'm saying we need a better way.
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Posted By: ...fanatic
Posted On: Nov 1
Views: 42
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
It seems to me that playoff supporters never really digest the arguments against a playoff which is why I hate getting into these "arguments".
So for my two cents from a personal enjoyment nature.......
I love it the way it is and even though my team is likely to be one that could get screwed, I'm still okay with it. Of course, we could still lose to Miami or Virginia or UNC or any two of those games or all three of those games so that's a completely moot point right now. Or we could get to the ACC C'ship and lose that game. So I don't worry about the national championship stuff at all. I just to win this week. Next week, I just want to win that game. The day I get so wrapped up in how a national championship is decided is the day I'll quit watching college football. The National Championship game is one game - I'd rather have fun with the other 11 or 12 or 13.
To me, the controversy adds to the fun of this game. And as I said before, the way it is now, every game is a playoff. If there's four undefeated teams, so what? Slap each other on the back, win a bowl game and have a party.
I'm convinced there will never be a playoff. If there ever is, they're just as likely to screw that up. Hell, if I'm no. 1 I don't want to play No. 8 for a chance to play no. 2. I want to go ahead and beat no. 2, take my trophy and go home.
So my view is to accept it as it is, understand how it works (which I do) and have fun rooting for my team.
Only thing I'd change is take out the voters and let the computers do it alone. Humans try to control things instead of objectively viewing them. It's like perception versus reality.
Perception is what happens when you give $40 million to a coach who has been at your school for 7 games and has won just 5 games in his CAREER.
Reality is what happens when your coach is the savior with a 10-2 record in his first year (Ty Willingham) and ran out of town in his third (Ty Willingham).
Go Hokies!!!
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Posted By: rolltide
Posted On: Nov 1
Views: 36
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
I always read and understand perfectly the arguements for the bowls, I just like the thought of proving your worth on the field. I get that the whole year is like a playoff, but really it isn't like a playoff if undefeated teams never get a chance to finish the playoffs. It would be like winnning the AFC and then you want to play in the superbowl and someone else gets your spot.
As far as people wanting to follow the team through the playoffs and the expense, I am sorry. I want a Ferrari, I just can't afford one. The Honda will have to do. At least its a stick- maybe if i rev it up I can pretend it's a Ferrari.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, there are problems with this system for sure, I would just like to try the playoff and we could see how it goes.
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Posted By: rolltide
Posted On: Nov 1
Views: 35
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
or even just a plus 1 scenario for occasions where there are undefeated teams getting left out would be nice to try just for maybe 3 years. if it is a failure we can go back to this current system. If it is a success maybe try the 4 team playoff.
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Posted By: Spence
Posted On: Nov 1
Views: 32
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
I pretty much agree wit fanatic on this one. I like the system as it is. I truly fair playoff system is impossible to have. too many games involved. College football doesn't have a true national champion. That is the thing that makes people so passionate about their teams. It makes them want to defend their team, talk about their team, follow recruiting, and in general support their team. If you settle it on the field you take away the argument. You make people not care so much about the season(except for playoffs), and with a clear cut national champion you lose the 24-7/365 interest in the game. how many people get as fired up about basketball as they do about football.
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Posted By: Cane from the Bend
Posted On: Nov 2
Views: 23
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
My point is that you have 11 (12-13) chances to settle things on the field.
If you take care of buisness during the regular season, then you don't have a complaint.
If you have more than one undefeated team after all is said and done, crown multiple champs.
Saying the problem is when there are more than two unbeatens does suffice justice. Because we can't be garunteed more than two unbeatens every season.
Hell, we can't be garunteed one undefeated team every season.
But to match a 1 or 2 loss team up in a post season game, with a team who took care of buisness all season long and already settled it on the field, simply to avoid having a problem in the years where there are more than two undefeated teams, is irresponsible.
The other problem is, that there are 119 teams.
The only way you could possibly get a fair playoff in Div-1A, is to disessemble all of the conferences the way they are.
Then re-organize them putting the midmajors in with the big boys.
Otherwise, you really only have 65 (the BCS six conference) teams with a ligitimate shot at the title each year.
Cane...
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Posted By: Cane from the Bend
Posted On: Nov 2
Views: 69
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
In which case, you may as well drop all of the mimajor teams into the Div-AA league.
And, with 65 teams, 12 weeks, and a national title game looming in January, nothing would change anyway.
Because 65 teams is an almost balanced playoff bracket. And so, playoffs would still start in September.
Cane...
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Posted By: mountainman
Posted On: Nov 2
Views: 62
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
Well, there goes the ole consensus. Sorry, Cyano, my post to you about us having a consensus was premature.
Congratulations to all who have participated. I can only speak for myself, but all views have been enlightening in one respect or another.
Should we consider whether or not to continue this particular discussion? If we all find ourselves already 'fixed' in a position then it is probably futile as far as coming up with anything that we all can agree upon.
If we decide we want to continue, then I propose that we set ourselves an objective. For my me, I would propose to all that we strive for consensus on a method for determining the National Champion. Then we will prepare a letter and send it to the National Football Foundation & College Hall of Fame's Commissioner, Mr. Bob Burda and Mr. Matthew Sign, the Chief Operating Officer.
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Posted By: ..fanatic
Posted On: Nov 2
Views: 57
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
Yeah, it is probably futile to think we can reach a consensus on this subject. It's been argued passionately for many years now. But I am impressed with the amount of thought and honest opinion that went into the responses on this board. And I wonder if there has been such truly enlightened discussion in any meetings with the folks you name. When I think of the NCAA, a movie title comes to mind ' "Meet The Fokkers".
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Posted By: ..fanatic
Posted On: Nov 2
Views: 54
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
Cane from the bend makes excellent, succinct points against a playoff. And herein lies why playoffs won't happen or shouldn't happen.
To do it right, you'd have to disassemble conferences and eliminate the bowls. You can't have all these extra games away from home.
A) The conferences are powerful machines that will refuse to go away.
B) The bowls are powerful machines that will refuse to be left out.
C) Too much tradition exists for people to let go of everything that prohibits the "clean-slate" needed to do a playoff correctly.
The product of compromise and inclusion would be a disaster.
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Posted By: mountainman
Posted On: Nov 2
Views: 52
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
That's the reason I proposed the notion, fanatic.
There is a number of different thoughts and opinions that have been written. All good from my perspective. I'm confident it's the same in the NCAA and the National Football Foundation & College Hall of Fame.
If we cannot get a consensus among ourselves and come up with a better way, then I would surmize that these governing bodies of college football will have the same difficulity. I suspect they are dealing with the same issues. Lots of different thoughts, perspectives and values.
You are probably right about the futility, and besides those guys would probably just trash the letter anyway.
I have to admit though, it would have been fun and challenging for all of us to get all the rest of us to agree on the same issue.
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Posted By: Spence
Posted On: Nov 2
Views: 38
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
we old guys have had this conversation before. I wanted to get some new blood in the debate. Now here is part 2 of the question.
If you like the bowl system, what would you do to change it to try to get a real national championship?
If you lean towards a playoff, how would you set it up so that it is fair to all? Remember that you have to address the money issues(they are part of it) and you need to make sure that the best teams are represented with out hacking off whole conferences. Also how would you determine who the best teams are? No one seems to like the polls so they can't be used. We are looking for the perfect system so when the last game is played everyone is sure that there is one and only one national champion.
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Posted By: Howdy
Posted On: Nov 2
Views: 36
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
Spence
In responce to part two.
At my age I will never see it.
But I hope you do.
Howdy
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Posted By: Spence
Posted On: Nov 2
Views: 35
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
your only in your 70's. I read in USA Today about people knocking down 100. That means 25 more good years watching husker football.
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Posted By: Howdy
Posted On: Nov 3
Views: 33
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
100
Wow
Iam slowing down now.
Don't think I care to live that long
and be a burden to my family.
But if thats what the good lord has instore
for me I won't argue.
Howdy
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Posted By: rolltide
Posted On: Nov 3
Views: 29
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
I feel as though my ideas were fairly flexible, I suggested many scenarios and even that we just try things for a defined length of time.
Howdy, you are not slowing down at kicking our tails at the pick game! I fear no one here will ever see the true national championship game. I will work on a plan to fix the bowls Spence, but this will require some time
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Posted By: Spence
Posted On: Nov 3
Views: 25
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
Howdy, the people i'm talking about weren't a burden on their families. Two of them still had jobs. They were active members of society. you sound to me like you have a little of those people in you. May as well see what the world has in store for us in thirty years.
Rolltide, time isn't a problem and a well thought out response is all I'm asking.
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Posted By: Eric
Posted On: Nov 3
Views: 23
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
Well, Spence, I wouldn't change anything. I think the system that is set up is perfect. I really don't think the computers have lied to us yet in the BCS. That is just an opinion though, others on this board might disagree.
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Posted By: Spence
Posted On: Nov 3
Views: 20
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
That's fair. Maybe a little lazy, but fair.
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Posted By: mountainman
Posted On: Nov 4
Views: 16
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
Hey rolltide, before you beat your brains out and spend a lot of time on it. I have a suggestion for your consideration.
Take a look at http://www.bcsfootball.org and study the entire site, not just the once over.
Before you do, promise yourself you will do your best to have an open mind and will supress any pre-conceived notions, thoughts, preferences, biases, etc. you may have.
This exercise was enlightening for me and brought into better focus the mission of the BCS. The site clarified, in my mind, what the facts and truths are while satisfying my concerns about whether or not this system is a good or not so good thing for college football.
I hope it's helpful.
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Posted By: Spence
Posted On: Oct 30
Views: 237
Bowl System vs. Playoff
Would you rather keep the Bowl System and it's MNC as imperfect as it is or have a playoff to determine a true NC. Keep in mind that no more then 16 teams could possibly be involved and that the sites for the playoff games would have to be regional because they would have to be played close enough for fans of the lucky few who made it couldn't travel across country for several games.
Personally I like the bowl system. Playoffs might give you the low controversy national champion, but part of the fun of CFB is the argument over which teams or which conferences are the best.
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Posted By: bama_girl
Posted On: Oct 30
Views: 236
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
i'm for a playoff system but i don't like the idea of the best from each conference being the ones doing the playing off. there should still be some kind of vote involved to keep the crappy conferences from mucking it up.
what the hell am i saying? i'm too sleepy to be here right now.........night yall!
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Posted By: Spence
Posted On: Oct 30
Views: 231
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
Even if they take the top 8, number 9 is going to be ****ed.
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Posted By: rolltide
Posted On: Oct 31
Views: 223
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
take the top 8. if you cant get into the top 8 you suck anyway. Determine it on the field, no more politics.
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Posted By: Howdy
Posted On: Oct 31
Views: 217
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
I like the bowl system but I think they need to change the way they pick the teams for the BCS.
The AP polls I like to see come from sports media members of each comference and the voters rotate each year.
I say about two or three votes from each conf.
The way they do it now gives to many votes for the teams on the coasts.
But we all know they aren't going to listen to us.
So I guess we have to live with what we got now.
Howdy
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Posted By: mountainman
Posted On: Oct 31
Views: 216
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
Seems to me that the root cause of the problem, in the current set-up, is who or what group of whos is declaring the National Champion.
If the NCAA is going to have a National Champion in Division 1A football, within the current set-up of bowls, then the NCAA should be the one to declare that champion. Not the Harris Poll plus the Coaches Poll plus six other automated formulas. I mean, if the season had ended last week, the University of Texas would have been declaried National Champion by 7 ten-thousandths of 1 point. Good Grief!
The conference races supply the playoffs. That ought to satisfy the playoff advocates.
Keep the bowls, let the players and fans enjoy the game and the trip.
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Posted By: rolltide
Posted On: Oct 31
Views: 209
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
Mountainman, you have many good points. Keep the bowls, all that is fine for the Rutgers of the world, I agree that these teams and fans deserve the reward of a bowl game.
My problem is that the big teams that bring most of the money into college football are getting screwed for the little guys. There could be a nice compromise. all bowls stay for the teams that are not in the title hunt. however we could have the top 4 or 8 playoff so there is a true on the field champ. the team that gets left out of the playoffs may whine, but at least this way there will basically never be an undefeated team that doesn't get it's chance on the field. Prove it on the field.
Can you imagine the matchups in a playoff system? 4Bama v. 1USC ... 2Texas v. 3Va tech
Then the winners play each other.
Or if the gods of football really wanted to make this awesome we would get 8 teams and just imagine those matchups. The bowls would still be there for everyone else. This is a nice compromise in my eyes.
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Posted By: rolltide
Posted On: Oct 31
Views: 207
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
I realize that Alabama has been one of those teams that needed the regular bowls lately, but I still would want the playoff even if Vandy was my favorite team. Vandy could still have it's shot at a bowl when it has a good year, and at the same time USC and VA tech or whoever else was unbeaten or in the top 4/8 would get to settle it on the field. The first round could be the major 4 bowls, then there could be the championship rounds after that. it would only add 3 games.
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Posted By: mountainman
Posted On: Oct 31
Views: 206
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
The best of both worlds. Not bad. Good teams get rewarded while the best teams play for the title and decide it on the field.
I'll buy into it with the condition that there is an equitable way for determining which teams make up the final four that provides opportunity for all D-1A programs.
Congratulations, rolltide, a compromise where everyone would get some of what they want.
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Posted By: mountainman
Posted On: Oct 31
Views: 199
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
Just an after-thought .... take the top four teams, play the first two games to kickoff the bowl season, say around December the 15th or so, then the winners play for the National Championship on January 4th or so.
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Posted By: Spence
Posted On: Oct 31
Views: 191
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
I like the bowl system but I think they need to change the way they pick the teams for the BCS.
"The AP polls I like to see come from sports media members of each comference and the voters rotate each year.
I say about two or three votes from each conf.
The way they do it now gives to many votes for the teams on the coasts.
But we all know they aren't going to listen to us.
So I guess we have to live with what we got now."
I like this suggestion. The only problem I see here is that you would be voting for money you would be receiving if a team from your conference votes.
Rolltide, if they institute a playoff there wouldn't be enough money to support the other bowls. Playoff money would be huge. That is why the networks want playoffs. Less meaningless games, more money.
I wouldn't mind a plus one, something like Mountainman described. Play the 1-4, 2-3 match up a couple of weeks before Christmas and the championship game the day after New Year. The only problem I see with that is ticket sales to the first game would suffer. With most people opting to wait for the championship game to take the trip. Also the championship game could turn into something like the Super Bowl, where normal people couldn't get tickets if they tried.
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Posted By: rolltide
Posted On: Oct 31
Views: 190
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
Anything to get these undefeated teams a chance to settle it on the field. I am not sure Bama can make it through the rest of the schedule undefeated, but those who do definitly deserve a chance to play for the crown. And Rutgers with a winning record definitly deserves to go to a bowl. Trust me I love the bowls and tradition, I am an Alabama fan that still gets goose bumps when Bryant's voice plays on the loudspeakers. I am also for taking some of the corporate crap away from the bowls. Fiesta bowl is the Fiesta bowl, I refuse to call it the Tostitos Fiesta bowl or the Nokia Sugar bowl, etc.
If only they would let us run things. haha
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Posted By: rolltide
Posted On: Oct 31
Views: 188
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
Spence, that is fine with me, just no more Auburn's left out in the cold with a perfect record. And you guys know how much that hurt me to say that!!!
That would be like you dressing up in all maize and blue!
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Posted By: ...fanatic
Posted On: Oct 31
Views: 187
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
All these ideas simply screw the fans out of a few more thousand $$$$ to go see their team play football. If you keep the bowls in place fopr playoffs every game as at a neutral site so EVERYONE is coughing up big bucks to go to multiple games if their team keeps winning. Won't happen. Attendence in the opening rounds will be nothing. IF you're going to have a reasonable playoff format that is fair to the schools (travel expenses and time) and the fans (travel expenses and time) you have to have all but the title game played AT THE SCHOOLS. If you have 8 teams and you're one of the two that win-out you should be guaranteed 1 home game, 1 away game and 1 neutral game (the National Championship). Then, you have to find a geographically reasonable site to hold the NC game and GUARANTEE the schools more than a few thousand tickets. Geez, it would still be a ticket resellers windfall and a fan's screwjob.
The bowls won't allow themselves to be left out and all the other things that need to happen won't happen. If you're going to change the complete system, do it right or not at all. Compromise will leave everyone still jerk because the correct scenario still won't exist.
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Posted By: mountainman
Posted On: Oct 31
Views: 182
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
I congratulate my fellow posters. All ya'll are a pleasure to post with.
Good points have been raised that need consideration:
(all of equal importance)
1 - Players
2 - Prices
3 - Venues
4 - Traditions
5 - Correctiness
Did I leave any out? What do we need to add?
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Posted By: ....fanatic
Posted On: Oct 31
Views: 90
Hey Mountainman...
You and I got off to a rough start on another board but we've obviously gotten along fine since then. I just want to tell you that you impress me as a fair, reasonable and intellgent person. Happy to "know" you, even if your favorite team is mine's bitter enemy.
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Posted By: mountainman
Posted On: Oct 31
Views: 83
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
To borrow a quote:
"The mills of the gods grind slowly, but they grind exceedingly long"
I enjoy your perspective too, fanatic.
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Posted By: Spence
Posted On: Oct 31
Views: 83
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
Fanatic, you are right that if there were playoffs that they would have to be regional. I like the Bowl System just the way it is and I know this doesn't give you a true NC. There has never been a true NC anyway. The bowl system is a money maker for the schools. It is a good winter vacation for all of us northerners. It is a chance for 14 schools to end the season on a high note. It creates controversy so that in the off season guys like us have something to talk about.
By the way. If your boys handle Miami this week you will have earned the right to be included in championship game talk. Va. Tech - Miami is the game that tells the nation what they are made of and if Tech wins they deserve the same consideration as Texas. SC is the champ and unless they get knocked off I believe they have the right to defend.
rolltide, as long as there is the bowl system in place someone is going to be left out in the cold. That is why they call the football championship the "mythical national championship". I think it makes things more interesting. Not fair, but interesting.
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Posted By: Cyano
Posted On: Oct 31
Views: 79
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
A lot of good stuff has been said already which I agree with so Ill just give my brief opinion. I like the bowl system. When deciding a NC it would require the 1-4,2-3 matchup that was talked about previously. I also like the idea of the "semi" games played to start the bowls off and the final to be played at the end. Especially when you have major conference teams that are all undefeated, #3 and #4 need a shot.
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Posted By: mountianman
Posted On: Oct 31
Views: 76
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
That's pretty much the consensus here, Cyano.
There's a number of things that were offerred that make a whole lot of sense. Such as, letting #1 and #2 host the opening round. Treat it like a home game so the fans that support the team during the season can enjoy the teams success.
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Posted By: Larry
Posted On: Oct 31
Views: 70
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
Problem with Playoff system: determines which teams are best "before" the end of the season (bowls).
Playoffs cut short "teams that get stronger" (ability to improve and prepare for the end of the season).
Then there's the BIG FACTOR....Where are the above games played??? home/away/neutral??>?
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Posted By: Cane from the Bend
Posted On: Nov 1
Views: 53
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
Other than the top couple of schools being saticfied, what solution is offered by the playoff concept?
Spence, I do not share the same opinion as you do on the #1 until proven otherwise ideology.
No offense to anyone (especially to those usc fans who would be ready to jump down my throat for saying this).
USc won the national championship last season. That earned them the right to be ranked #1 at the end of last season.
In no way shape or form should that have any baring on how they are ranked this season.
The same argument could be made for the Heisman then.
Last year, Lienart was not the best player in "all" of College Football. He was on the best team in College Football.
If SC wins out, they may as well give Lienart the Heisman again, because it is the exact same logic as usc being #1 coming into the year.
College Football should be viewed on a season to season basis.
Once the smoke settles, a Champion (whether correctly chosen or not) is crowned.
When the next season begins, all teams from that division (we're talking Div-1A here) 119 teams are wiped to 0-offense/0-deffense/0-special teams.
At the beginning of a season, no team is better or worse than the next team, until the first games are played.
This is the reason why controversey exists, not because we don't have a playoff system.
===========================
As a matter of fact, we already do have a playoff system for Div-1A College Football.
Think of it.
If you end this year with 1 loss on your schedule, you, for the most part, eliminated yourselves from contention.
Isn't that what a playoff system is meant to do?
The big problem I have with the playoff idea, is the possibility of have a one or two loss team play and beat an undefeated team.
For example:
Let's say next year we only have two undefeated teams after 12 games (13 if a Conference championship is played).
Going by Rolltide's method (we'll entertain the 4 team option) if the #3 team has a (11-1) record, and the #4 team has a (10-2) record, should they be rewarded the opportunity to play the top two teams who finish the regular season unbeaten?
Unless your team wins 100% of their games, how fair is it to have them compete against a team who has done it all year long?
Regardless of how well they are playing at the season's end, a team shouldn't just get the poll approval.
That is where I believe people get confused.
It says to a team, "well you started off on the wrong foot, but since you finished strong, you get my vote".
That is called sending the wrong impression to a program.
And that doesn't serve justice to the team(s) who had started strong, and finished that way.
===========================
Our problem is, we keep looking at things in the, "Who's #1" perspective.
Well, the truth is, when two teams enter into the national championship game, both being undefeated, the answer is simple.
Both teams are #1.
They are about to play for the national title. The winner is the clear #1 team. The loser is #2.
#2 does not go to the team who did not play in that game. Simply because, they did not play in that game.
What is screwing up the system so much, is the way the human polls release their first rankings before the BCS rankings come out.
It hasn't been the BCS to mess up the contenders. It's the human element.
Why was Auburn left out of the national Championship last year?
Well, where did the AP have the ranked in the preseason?
And once the Tigers finished undefeated, it was the same AP who cried foul.
Then they stuck their tails between their legs and ran like the imputant inferriors they are.
They knew it was their fault.
But to cover their tracks, they made you believe the BCS did it. And that the flawless AP would remove themselves from the BCS altogether. Besides, they didn't give the BCS the right to use their poll as a statistic in order to determine the official national rankings.
Bull!
If the AP had been left out of the equation in 1997, how much bloody hell and high water would they have been screaming then?
I'll say this.
Take out the preseason/preBCS polls, and you won't have as much clutter to deal with once the "Official" ratings are released.
===========================
My last passage I'll leave you with is this.
How can you improve upon something that already appeals to the masses?
Are we that oblivious to think we need to change the system to the extent of revamping the whole chronology?
Other than the media griping about a playoff system, where else does this idea come from?
Certainly not the fans.
If it did, then why have we continued to support the sport the way we have over the expanse of 60+ years?
Until the press puts the idea into your head that we need to fix things. You don't say a word.
Once the issue is on the table, you jump on it as though it is the last chicken leg at dinner, and you're not going to eat for three days.
How about asking yourself instead, why you consider this the best sport in the world.
How about asking yourself if you ever wanted the changes that have been made, to be made, only to still be unsaticfied with it.
What good does it do to change things, yet again, only to, again, be unsaticfied with it?
The changes made were supposed to make things simpler.
But it seems the more we change the rules, the more cunfused and disgruntled we become.
Cane...
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Posted By: rolltide
Posted On: Nov 1
Views: 48
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
Cane, the problem is when there is more than one undefeated team, that's all. As far as #1 playing #4 well, if #1 wants to stay #1, man up and win the game. Why should they be protected from a 1 or 2 loss team? if they are the better team they will suck it up and come away with the win. Playoffs are the only way that championships are settled on the field. Every sport has them besides college football (1A) and the only reason college football doesn't is money. They can keep the polls and the computers and let the teams play for the championship on the field. The tradition aspect is over. the bowls are not the same as they used to be, we cant get up on new years day and have 10 different scenarios where this or that team can win the championship or a share of the championship. Sadly those days are over. I say the 4 team playoff deserves a chance. We gave 50 computers averaged in some formula a chance. at least with playoffs the winner will have earned the crown for sure.
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Posted By: rolltide
Posted On: Nov 1
Views: 47
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
I am not trying to be a pain in the butt, it just makes more sense to me to have a playoff for at least the top 4. If Alabama were the only undefeated team, and they had to face a 2 loss Michigan in the #1 v. #4 scenario and Alabama loses, well I am not going to complain. Alabama was not the better team plain and simple. but we will never have an undefeated team at #3 left out because of human polls or computers. I think the system could even adapt. Say there are 5 undefeated teams, they should work out a bye for the #1 team or could have an 8 team playoff. I would rather tamper with a playoff format than a math formula every year.
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Posted By: mountainman
Posted On: Nov 1
Views: 45
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
I don't have time to go into this right now, but (there's that dang but) one might want to be mindful that this week's BCS rankings, without the Harris Poll and the Coaches Poll, only considering the 'Computer Poll' have the University of Texas ranked as #1, while the University of Southern California and Virginia Tech are ranked as tied for #2.
The whole is the sum of its parts, any of the three components of the current BCS system is subject to screwing up.
If we are going to have a National Champion, we need a better way for determining just which team that is. I'm not saying we've got it or we have come up with it, I'm saying we need a better way.
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Posted By: ...fanatic
Posted On: Nov 1
Views: 42
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
It seems to me that playoff supporters never really digest the arguments against a playoff which is why I hate getting into these "arguments".
So for my two cents from a personal enjoyment nature.......
I love it the way it is and even though my team is likely to be one that could get screwed, I'm still okay with it. Of course, we could still lose to Miami or Virginia or UNC or any two of those games or all three of those games so that's a completely moot point right now. Or we could get to the ACC C'ship and lose that game. So I don't worry about the national championship stuff at all. I just to win this week. Next week, I just want to win that game. The day I get so wrapped up in how a national championship is decided is the day I'll quit watching college football. The National Championship game is one game - I'd rather have fun with the other 11 or 12 or 13.
To me, the controversy adds to the fun of this game. And as I said before, the way it is now, every game is a playoff. If there's four undefeated teams, so what? Slap each other on the back, win a bowl game and have a party.
I'm convinced there will never be a playoff. If there ever is, they're just as likely to screw that up. Hell, if I'm no. 1 I don't want to play No. 8 for a chance to play no. 2. I want to go ahead and beat no. 2, take my trophy and go home.
So my view is to accept it as it is, understand how it works (which I do) and have fun rooting for my team.
Only thing I'd change is take out the voters and let the computers do it alone. Humans try to control things instead of objectively viewing them. It's like perception versus reality.
Perception is what happens when you give $40 million to a coach who has been at your school for 7 games and has won just 5 games in his CAREER.
Reality is what happens when your coach is the savior with a 10-2 record in his first year (Ty Willingham) and ran out of town in his third (Ty Willingham).
Go Hokies!!!
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Posted By: rolltide
Posted On: Nov 1
Views: 36
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
I always read and understand perfectly the arguements for the bowls, I just like the thought of proving your worth on the field. I get that the whole year is like a playoff, but really it isn't like a playoff if undefeated teams never get a chance to finish the playoffs. It would be like winnning the AFC and then you want to play in the superbowl and someone else gets your spot.
As far as people wanting to follow the team through the playoffs and the expense, I am sorry. I want a Ferrari, I just can't afford one. The Honda will have to do. At least its a stick- maybe if i rev it up I can pretend it's a Ferrari.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, there are problems with this system for sure, I would just like to try the playoff and we could see how it goes.
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Posted By: rolltide
Posted On: Nov 1
Views: 35
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
or even just a plus 1 scenario for occasions where there are undefeated teams getting left out would be nice to try just for maybe 3 years. if it is a failure we can go back to this current system. If it is a success maybe try the 4 team playoff.
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Posted By: Spence
Posted On: Nov 1
Views: 32
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
I pretty much agree wit fanatic on this one. I like the system as it is. I truly fair playoff system is impossible to have. too many games involved. College football doesn't have a true national champion. That is the thing that makes people so passionate about their teams. It makes them want to defend their team, talk about their team, follow recruiting, and in general support their team. If you settle it on the field you take away the argument. You make people not care so much about the season(except for playoffs), and with a clear cut national champion you lose the 24-7/365 interest in the game. how many people get as fired up about basketball as they do about football.
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Posted By: Cane from the Bend
Posted On: Nov 2
Views: 23
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
My point is that you have 11 (12-13) chances to settle things on the field.
If you take care of buisness during the regular season, then you don't have a complaint.
If you have more than one undefeated team after all is said and done, crown multiple champs.
Saying the problem is when there are more than two unbeatens does suffice justice. Because we can't be garunteed more than two unbeatens every season.
Hell, we can't be garunteed one undefeated team every season.
But to match a 1 or 2 loss team up in a post season game, with a team who took care of buisness all season long and already settled it on the field, simply to avoid having a problem in the years where there are more than two undefeated teams, is irresponsible.
The other problem is, that there are 119 teams.
The only way you could possibly get a fair playoff in Div-1A, is to disessemble all of the conferences the way they are.
Then re-organize them putting the midmajors in with the big boys.
Otherwise, you really only have 65 (the BCS six conference) teams with a ligitimate shot at the title each year.
Cane...
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Posted By: Cane from the Bend
Posted On: Nov 2
Views: 69
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
In which case, you may as well drop all of the mimajor teams into the Div-AA league.
And, with 65 teams, 12 weeks, and a national title game looming in January, nothing would change anyway.
Because 65 teams is an almost balanced playoff bracket. And so, playoffs would still start in September.
Cane...
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Posted By: mountainman
Posted On: Nov 2
Views: 62
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
Well, there goes the ole consensus. Sorry, Cyano, my post to you about us having a consensus was premature.
Congratulations to all who have participated. I can only speak for myself, but all views have been enlightening in one respect or another.
Should we consider whether or not to continue this particular discussion? If we all find ourselves already 'fixed' in a position then it is probably futile as far as coming up with anything that we all can agree upon.
If we decide we want to continue, then I propose that we set ourselves an objective. For my me, I would propose to all that we strive for consensus on a method for determining the National Champion. Then we will prepare a letter and send it to the National Football Foundation & College Hall of Fame's Commissioner, Mr. Bob Burda and Mr. Matthew Sign, the Chief Operating Officer.
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Posted By: ..fanatic
Posted On: Nov 2
Views: 57
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
Yeah, it is probably futile to think we can reach a consensus on this subject. It's been argued passionately for many years now. But I am impressed with the amount of thought and honest opinion that went into the responses on this board. And I wonder if there has been such truly enlightened discussion in any meetings with the folks you name. When I think of the NCAA, a movie title comes to mind ' "Meet The Fokkers".
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Posted By: ..fanatic
Posted On: Nov 2
Views: 54
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
Cane from the bend makes excellent, succinct points against a playoff. And herein lies why playoffs won't happen or shouldn't happen.
To do it right, you'd have to disassemble conferences and eliminate the bowls. You can't have all these extra games away from home.
A) The conferences are powerful machines that will refuse to go away.
B) The bowls are powerful machines that will refuse to be left out.
C) Too much tradition exists for people to let go of everything that prohibits the "clean-slate" needed to do a playoff correctly.
The product of compromise and inclusion would be a disaster.
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Posted By: mountainman
Posted On: Nov 2
Views: 52
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
That's the reason I proposed the notion, fanatic.
There is a number of different thoughts and opinions that have been written. All good from my perspective. I'm confident it's the same in the NCAA and the National Football Foundation & College Hall of Fame.
If we cannot get a consensus among ourselves and come up with a better way, then I would surmize that these governing bodies of college football will have the same difficulity. I suspect they are dealing with the same issues. Lots of different thoughts, perspectives and values.
You are probably right about the futility, and besides those guys would probably just trash the letter anyway.
I have to admit though, it would have been fun and challenging for all of us to get all the rest of us to agree on the same issue.
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Posted By: Spence
Posted On: Nov 2
Views: 38
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
we old guys have had this conversation before. I wanted to get some new blood in the debate. Now here is part 2 of the question.
If you like the bowl system, what would you do to change it to try to get a real national championship?
If you lean towards a playoff, how would you set it up so that it is fair to all? Remember that you have to address the money issues(they are part of it) and you need to make sure that the best teams are represented with out hacking off whole conferences. Also how would you determine who the best teams are? No one seems to like the polls so they can't be used. We are looking for the perfect system so when the last game is played everyone is sure that there is one and only one national champion.
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Posted By: Howdy
Posted On: Nov 2
Views: 36
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
Spence
In responce to part two.
At my age I will never see it.
But I hope you do.
Howdy
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Posted By: Spence
Posted On: Nov 2
Views: 35
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
your only in your 70's. I read in USA Today about people knocking down 100. That means 25 more good years watching husker football.
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Posted By: Howdy
Posted On: Nov 3
Views: 33
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
100
Wow
Iam slowing down now.
Don't think I care to live that long
and be a burden to my family.
But if thats what the good lord has instore
for me I won't argue.
Howdy
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Posted By: rolltide
Posted On: Nov 3
Views: 29
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
I feel as though my ideas were fairly flexible, I suggested many scenarios and even that we just try things for a defined length of time.
Howdy, you are not slowing down at kicking our tails at the pick game! I fear no one here will ever see the true national championship game. I will work on a plan to fix the bowls Spence, but this will require some time
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Posted By: Spence
Posted On: Nov 3
Views: 25
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
Howdy, the people i'm talking about weren't a burden on their families. Two of them still had jobs. They were active members of society. you sound to me like you have a little of those people in you. May as well see what the world has in store for us in thirty years.
Rolltide, time isn't a problem and a well thought out response is all I'm asking.
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Posted By: Eric
Posted On: Nov 3
Views: 23
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
Well, Spence, I wouldn't change anything. I think the system that is set up is perfect. I really don't think the computers have lied to us yet in the BCS. That is just an opinion though, others on this board might disagree.
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Posted By: Spence
Posted On: Nov 3
Views: 20
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
That's fair. Maybe a little lazy, but fair.
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Posted By: mountainman
Posted On: Nov 4
Views: 16
RE: Bowl System vs. Playoff
Hey rolltide, before you beat your brains out and spend a lot of time on it. I have a suggestion for your consideration.
Take a look at http://www.bcsfootball.org and study the entire site, not just the once over.
Before you do, promise yourself you will do your best to have an open mind and will supress any pre-conceived notions, thoughts, preferences, biases, etc. you may have.
This exercise was enlightening for me and brought into better focus the mission of the BCS. The site clarified, in my mind, what the facts and truths are while satisfying my concerns about whether or not this system is a good or not so good thing for college football.
I hope it's helpful.
THANK YOU MOUNTAINMAN!
This is what I've been trying to say, that a playoff would ruin the regular season of college football. I mean, say the Spurs get beat by the Bobcats or something, but it's no big deal. If the Red Wings get beat by the Blue Jackets, it's no big deal. If the Yankees get beat by the Devil Rays, it's no big deal. If the Colts get beat by the Cardinals, it's no big deal, [b]THERE'S ALWAYS NEXT GAME[/b].
And you're really going to take the passion and excitement out of the regular season. I mean, take yesterday for example. Say Illinois was undefeated (that sounds crazy I know), and underdog/decent team Iowa beat them by 15 or something, that's a big deal in college football. It's not in college basketball because you know they can bounce back sometime else, and they'll probably make the tournament. That's what you're going to make college football into.
If you lose a game like that in college football, it's a big deal. That's what you're going to miss.
I like the point about what happens to recruiting. Can you seriously get players to Kent State if Ohio State is the only team in the state that can possibly make the playoffs? You know what the parody in college football will soon be right now? Well, you'll miss that. The talent gap between mid-majors and BCS conference schools will be SO wide. It wouldn't be fair to the mid-majors because of this recruiting, and they have nothing to play for.
As for the "NIT", are you serious? I can't watch that crap. Even though it is college basketball, you know how passionless those games are played by? Sure the NIT championship can say you are the best team disregarded by the selection committee, but other than that, there isn't anything on the line. Makes it very boring to watch!
I want college football to sign an extension with the BCS to slap all of these crititcs in their face! They should know what's best for college football! See, I'm a real conservative guy, I don't push for change much too often. What's worked in the past is good enough for me. I still don't think that the BCS has lied to us. Just because you lose later in the season means a team with 1 loss behind you should jump you? What matters is what happens during the course of the season, not the very last game. That's why Oklahoma should've been in 2003, the course of the season matters who gets in.
This is what I've been trying to say, that a playoff would ruin the regular season of college football. I mean, say the Spurs get beat by the Bobcats or something, but it's no big deal. If the Red Wings get beat by the Blue Jackets, it's no big deal. If the Yankees get beat by the Devil Rays, it's no big deal. If the Colts get beat by the Cardinals, it's no big deal, [b]THERE'S ALWAYS NEXT GAME[/b].
And you're really going to take the passion and excitement out of the regular season. I mean, take yesterday for example. Say Illinois was undefeated (that sounds crazy I know), and underdog/decent team Iowa beat them by 15 or something, that's a big deal in college football. It's not in college basketball because you know they can bounce back sometime else, and they'll probably make the tournament. That's what you're going to make college football into.
If you lose a game like that in college football, it's a big deal. That's what you're going to miss.
I like the point about what happens to recruiting. Can you seriously get players to Kent State if Ohio State is the only team in the state that can possibly make the playoffs? You know what the parody in college football will soon be right now? Well, you'll miss that. The talent gap between mid-majors and BCS conference schools will be SO wide. It wouldn't be fair to the mid-majors because of this recruiting, and they have nothing to play for.
As for the "NIT", are you serious? I can't watch that crap. Even though it is college basketball, you know how passionless those games are played by? Sure the NIT championship can say you are the best team disregarded by the selection committee, but other than that, there isn't anything on the line. Makes it very boring to watch!
I want college football to sign an extension with the BCS to slap all of these crititcs in their face! They should know what's best for college football! See, I'm a real conservative guy, I don't push for change much too often. What's worked in the past is good enough for me. I still don't think that the BCS has lied to us. Just because you lose later in the season means a team with 1 loss behind you should jump you? What matters is what happens during the course of the season, not the very last game. That's why Oklahoma should've been in 2003, the course of the season matters who gets in.
Running bowl/MSU/OSU record '05-present: 11-32
Oh I forgot a little something else!
The whole bowl experience is what college football players will miss. I mean, ESPN always shows you what activities they participate in before the game. They're basically tourists. So what are you going to tell the losing team in the first round? "Good to have you here, seeya!"
The whole bowl experience is what college football players will miss. I mean, ESPN always shows you what activities they participate in before the game. They're basically tourists. So what are you going to tell the losing team in the first round? "Good to have you here, seeya!"
Running bowl/MSU/OSU record '05-present: 11-32
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