ND Schedule

[Spence]

I never said that I was a fair man.

[mountainman]

Oops, irish88, you set your own trap and then stepped into it. That's O.K. .... keep trying .... remember .... I warned you that these guys are a pretty sharp bunch.

What's good for college football has to come first. Not what is good for an individual team or conference.

That's where all the thoughts and feelings about advantage come from.

Consider this if you will.

Why do you think all the members of Div 1-A college football agreed to the 85 scholarship limit. Why would the big money schools agree to something like that?

Why do you think the Big Ten and Pac-10 would ever agree to give up the Rose Bowl and a guaranteed big payday for the BCS? If the BCS had not been agreed too by all the BCS Conferences we would have never seen Southern Cal and Texas duke it out for the National Title on January 4th.

Why do you think that the BCS commissioner and other conference commissioners told a congressional sub-committee, who called a hearing concerning the BCS, that the BCS was better as opposed to a playoff system even though with a playoff system there would be millions of more dollars generated?

I cannot say with certainty, but it could be that the decision makers (college presidents) believe this is what's best for college football?

[Yeofoot]

I like the bowls more because, that system makes it more likely that the best team from that year win the championship, not the best team at the end of the season.

[mountainman]

Well, we seem to be going off on a little tangent here. That's O.K. I'll continue to search for evidence that shows Notre Dame does not have advantage over conference affiliated teams.

As for your post, there are many people who agree with you that a playoff would be best for college football. I'm not one of them. I'm not making an argument about the BCS providing the means for Texas and USC to duke it out for the National Title. Instead, I just stated what happened. As far as Auburn and the many that felt Auburn was better than USC and Oklahoma in '04, I would say they were disappointed. The BCS does have a problem when there are more than two teams that have performed equally well during the regular season.

"What about Utah?" you ask. It shows me that the BCS is working. Utah, as a non-BCS conference member made it to a BCS Bowl. I'm O.K. with that. Can't help you with public opinion .... that's the same bunch that said that West Virginia had no chance against Georgia in the Sugar Bowl and that Penn State would blow away Florida State in the Orange Bowl etc. etc. etc. .....

Yep, upsets happen in the NCAA hoops tourney, they also happen in college football during the regular season and in the bowls. That's one of the reasons I believe regular season performance is the best way to determine the BCS lineup. Because it requires a team to earn a spot over the course of a season and not based on the performance or results of one game. You see, based on what I saw, I don't believe that Southern Cal or Texas was the best team in college football at the end of the regular season. I believe that Ohio State was the best team at the end of the regular season.

[Spence]

That may be because Ohio State didn't play Texas or USC in the bowl game. ND's secondary was clearly outmatched in the Fiesta Bowl. While I believe Ohio State could have given Texas or SC a good game, I don't think Ohio State was any better then either one.

I do believe most of the teams in the top 10 could give USC or Texas a game. Parity and all that.

[mountainman]

Well, that is what I believe. Once Ohio State found their offense during the regular season to go along with that defense and special teams play the Buckeyes convinced me, after watching the other teams play, that they were the best team in the country. Now, that doesn't mean anything, it's just what I concluded.

I mentioned earlier, "because it requires a team to earn a spot over the course of a season and not based on the performance or results of one game." As it turned out, both Ohio State and West Virginia did not earn an opportunity to play for the national title because of their losses during the regular season. There were other teams that earned the privilege.

In my mind a playoff would not change the facts that both Ohio State and West Virginia had losses during the regular season nor would it supply us with a national champion. It would provide us with a playoff winner and a clear-cut #1, but not a national champion.

Let me put it this way. Let's pretend I'm right and Ohio State did have the best team at the end of the regular season. Now, lets have a four team playoff using the BCS top four teams and the results of this regular season's play.

Semi-final round, #1 Southern Cal plays #4 Ohio State and #2 Texas plays #3 Penn State. During the semi-final round of play Ohio State beats Southern Cal and Penn State beats Texas. We move to the finals with Ohio State playing Penn State and Ohio State wins.

Now what do we have ... during the regular season Ohio State lost to both Texas and Penn State, but the Buckeyes are the Champion while both Texas and Southern Cal only lost 1 game. How do you think the fans of college football would react to that? Do you believe that Texas, Penn State or USC would ever concede that Ohio State was the real champ?

That's just one example of why I believe that, at this point in time, a playoff is not in the best interest of college football.

[Spence]

I mentioned earlier, "because it requires a team to earn a spot over the course of a season and not based on the performance or results of one game." As it turned out, both Ohio State and West Virginia did not earn an opportunity to play for the national title because of their losses during the regular season. There were other teams that earned the privilege.

MM, it amazes me how much we think alike. It is about earning your way through during the season. Playing the toughest teams. If you don't cut it, as in the case of my Buckeyes this year, you try and get better. No one in the country deserved a shot at the championship at the end of the season but Texas and SC. They earned their way in.

There is a topic posted for this tangent already, we should probably move this debate over there.

[mountainman]

That's O.K. with me Spence. Just PM me and irish88 so we'll know where it is.

[..fanatic]

Forgive me for qouting my own quote, but I need to add an explanation.

I don't think ND's catholic affiliation is a silly argument. That affiliation means that most, if not all, media memers who are catholic are going to have some bias in their favor which relates to poll votes (Harris) and media decisions for broadcasting to politicking within bowl committees. You can't exclude this from the agrument.

How else do you explain polls that ranked them so highly when supposedly unbiased computers don't.

Certainly, their storied past comes into play significantly. They were a NATIONAL team in their heyday (and, no, I'm not dismissing their national importance now). As I said before, people latched onto them in the 40's and 50's when college football was garnering huge attention and not a lot of other colleges had developed large fan bases. Those parents/grandparents passed their ND allegiance onto their kids.

There's no doubt the Irish are either loved or hated. I don't think there are a lot of people on the fence there.

[Spence]

Certainly, their storied past comes into play significantly. They were a NATIONAL team in their heyday (and, no, I'm not dismissing their national importance now). As I said before, people latched onto them in the 40's and 50's when college football was garnering huge attention and not a lot of other colleges had developed large fan bases. Those parents/grandparents passed their ND allegiance onto their kids.

That is how most life long fans start. I cut my teeth on a Buckeye binky. My dad was a huge Ohio State fan. He introduced them to me. Traditions and all.

Nice save Fanatic. You got the topic back on line.

MM. I was talking about the "post season playoffs topic" Its hard not to shift gears sometimes. I am worse about it then anyone else.

[mountainman]

Yep, it's hard not too, especially when the topic is a broad one.

Is Notre Dame a special team or no different then other college football team is a pretty broad topic.

It could be debated or argued from the "A Special Team" perspective by simply listing what one believes to be advantages they have or from a "No different then other CFB team" perspective by posting what "other CFB team" are subjected too such as conference scheduling and rules. One of those rules of conferences is participation in the BCS by winning their conference which ND does not have to deal with.

I can see where some might have trouble keeping up and understanding the relevance of these points to the debate and would want to keep the debate in a venue of their understanding.

So be it.

[Yeofoot]

I'm still going with the 'they're the NY Yankess of College Football'.

[Spence]

Notre Dame has the largest fan base in CFB. That doesn't mean that the football team is "better" or even has more tradition then other programs. Teams like Alabama, Texas, USC,UCLA, Ohio State, Michigan, Oklahoma, Nebraska, Georgia, and Auburn among others also have national fan bases and are equally matched with Notre Dame in History and Tradition. Miami, Va. Tech, Florida, Florida St. have national fans bases as well and a very good recent (Last 25 years) history of winning. Then you have regional teams in all conferences that have long histories of tradition and winning. They may not have the national following, but they still belong in the mix.

It has been 20 years since ND has played great football. They may return to the top under Charlie Weis, but they are not one of the elite teams in the nation at this point. Until they start proving they can win, not come close, but win again they are not "back".

I could say Notre Dame was a great team this year because it would make Ohio State look better under the circumstances, but Ohio State played ND like they played everyone else this year. Ohio State was sloppy and didn't play good fundamental football in that game or the rest of the season. Great teams beat Ohio State this year for that reason. Notre Dame didn't have a great team.

[..fanatic]

Has anybody seen this?

http://www.cancharlie.com/

[Spence]

There is one in every crowd, with these firewhoever.com sites. If Weis wasn't popular with the powers that be at ND, he wouldn't have received a 10 year extention. That pretty much says it all with how ND feels about Charlie Weis.